Episode 32: “OBGYN Satan Worshiper” (w/ Kara Vallow!)

''This week we’re joined by producer Kara Vallow (Family Guy, American Dad, Cosmos) and special returning guest host Joelle Monique to talk ROSEMARY’S BABY! (Yes, we know the director is mega problematic. Of COURSE that comes up in the discussion, have you met us?)   Nay fiercely defends her dinner table rights, Michael practically fills out an application for the Bram based on their apartment floor plan, and Brennan and Joelle swap twisted tales of the medical establishment. Plus, in Tea Time we sip on FOSSE/VERDON, EYES OF MY MOTHER, HALLOWEEN III, and THE CURSE OF LA LLORONA!''

Trivia
First episode with a guest co-host (friend of the pod/returning guest Joelle Monique)

Topics brought up during the episode: Ruth Gordon winning an Oscar and a Golden Globe for her role, the movie being nominated for best adapted screenplay, William Castle, four Golden Globe nominations, Joelle writing about the 100th episode of Gotham in The Hollywood Reporter, Gotham series finale, Joelle on The Daily Zeitgeist, pinksluice Kara's blog

Tea Time
Michael: The Act season one; Halloween III: Season of the Witch

Nay: The Eyes of My Mother; The Curse of La Llorona (with Brennan)

Kara: Afterlife (Netflix)

Brennan: The Curse of La Llorona (with Nay)

Shady Summaries
Kara:

Nay: I would just say, if your man asks you if you wanna make love, like first of all, gross. If your man asks if you wanna make love, and you say yes and he turns off the lights off, dump him

Joelle: What was that?! Dump him!

Nay: Dump him

Joelle: I'm gonna piggyback off Nay's and say if your man has sex with you without permission in your sleep and then compares it to necrophilia? Get out! You should leave immediately!

Kara: You know it's interesting that it's just a toss, it was long before--

Michael: It was legal

Kara: Long before marital rape was illegalized, and she just sort of looks hurt if I remember right and she's like, "Well, you could've waited until tomorrow or something. You didn't have to," and he's just off to another subject!

Michael: Yeah

Nay: (as Guy) "I was wasted, too."

Kara: Right

Michael: "Time for me to go to work."

Nay: How drunk?

Joelle: It was just so goddamn creepy

Nay: How drunk?

Joelle: All of it is awful and terrible, but then the comparison to necrophilia. "I'm not a dead-- what? What?! Ew, no! No!"

Michael: Do you even have a reference for this?

Joelle: Right

Michael: That I don't know about?

Joelle: "I don't wanna know about it! We're done! This is divorce territory for sure!"

Brennan: A horror film about the disturbing truth that no matter how rich you are you can't afford walls thick enough to not hear your neighbors

Michael: Mine just is sad. "White men have not changed."

Pride Float
Michael: At the end of every show, we decide if a movie gets a Pride float. And if it does, that means it's got a lot of positive representation or connection to the queer community.

Kara: I'm not sure this gets a Pride float

Michael: And sometimes we; have you ever seen Sleepaway Camp?

Kara: No

Michael: Okay, well we gave that movie community service. Sometimes we just don't give a movie a Pride float, like 1408, you guys said it wasn't one way or the other

Brennan: It doesn't really deserve

Nay: It could still come with sparklers

Kara: Is Sleepaway Camp super homophobic?

Michael: Yeah yeah yeah. Super homophobic and queerphobic and transphobic and it's just dirty and disgusting and vile. (To Kara) So you don't think (Rosemary's Baby) gets a Pride float?

Kara: No, I guess I didn't understand the--

Michael: So, does it have a good representation or connection to the--

Brennan and Michael: Queer community at large?

Michael: I, personally think it does get a Pride float. I don't know about positive queer representation, but I think it does represent--

Kara: The powerless

Michael: The pain and suffering of, yeah, that powerless people go through and I think for me, we need to see those we need to see that side of queerness and womanhood and everything, so we don't forget

Kara: Totally. And Lauralee gets a Pride float

Michael: Absolutely!

Brennan: Yeah

Michael: I forgot about her! And Hutch

Joelle: She was, she's very interesting

Michael: She is

Joelle: Out of the closet in the Thirties

Michael: Yeah. Which is amazing

Joelle: And it ruined her career, I mean--

Kara: Yeah

Joelle: She got some parts, y'know, later on in the Sixties, she was in Freaky Friday (1976) with Jodie Foster--

Brennan: (gasps)

Kara: Amazing

Joelle: She won a Tony for the revival of No, No, Nanette in 1971

Michael: Oh, no kidding! And I think Hutch is like a queer, a cool queer character even though they kill him

Joelle: Yeah

Brennan: That's how it goes, man

Michael: Bury your gays

Joelle: But Hutch was, what's interesting about Hutch is that he was smart enough to know that he could not visit (Rosemary) and he would need to leave the book through word of mouth so that it would get to her

Kara: True

Joelle: Hutch's ability to make sure she didn't land herself in more trouble or in more danger was brilliant and I think--

Michael: And caring!

Joelle: I wish we had found a way to have more of a spotlight for Hutch, like maybe just a scene in the hospital bed planning it, because he's really valuable

Kara: That scene where she has the Scrabble pieces out…

Michael: Love it

Kara: It's so terrifying

Michael: I wish it went on for an hour. I'm like, give me more anagram shit! That's my favorite part of Silence of the Lambs and I never put that connection together, like Silence of the Lambs stole that from this movie.

Brennan: Nay, Pride float?

Nay: I mean, no. Maybe they can run some workshops on consent and body autonomy and agency

Michael: Ohhh, okay!

Nay: But I only really say no because it's like, Pride is white enough

Brennan: Oh, fair

Michael: (chuckling) Oh my God! I'm with you, I take back my Pride float

Nay: It's like, enough! Enough is enough. However…

Michael: They can go to like--

Nay: They could offer some really great--

Kara: It's a very white movie

Michael: Yeah

Brennan: Yeah

Joelle: There's a Black, um…

Brennan: The elevator guy?

Joelle: Yeah

Nay: What did white people do in elevators after Black people stopped operating them for everybody?

Kara: What was he thinkin'?

Joelle: Here's my side story for him. That guy's still working in the building and they pay him pretty well, and he's like, "Listen."

Kara: He knows something's going on

Michael: That key means a lot to him

Joelle: He definitely knows something is going on. Because when he, before he goes out the elevator, he looks around…

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Joelle: And I think it's meant to give a sense of like, "Oh, is there anyone else that needs to get on?" But it gave me the sense of like, "These white people are crazy. I dunno who's coming around the corner."

Nay: Absolutely

Kara: Me too

Michael: (laughing) Nay!

Joelle: And he even gets a second moment at the end or in her dream, I forgot to write it down. He gets a second moment in here where something interesting is happening with him and I still don't quite know what it's supposed to mean

Nay: Yeah. It's fast. I don't really… yeah

Joelle: And it's very much not made clear, but he's doing something and I would totally watch his next thing

Michael: Another sidequel

Nay: Yes

Joelle: Yes

Michael: "The Elevator Man"

Joelle: I think we should give it a Pride float, but it should be Vidal Sassoon's Pride float

Brennan and Michael: Ohhhh!

Joelle: Just (Mia Farrow's) haircut. Yeah

Michael: Oooh!

Joelle: The sassy gay hairdresser that did it

Michael: Oh yeah. Yeah. You know a gay did her hair

Joelle: (laughing) Yes!

Nay: Yeah

Michael: He's like, (fey voice) "Get my cut!"

Joelle: "Look at these cheekbones! I'm gonna make 'em pop, it's gonna be amazing!"

Brennan: God yeah

Michael: (fey voice)."Your big blue eyes are just gonna…"

Brennan: And Guy deserved to be pushed out of a window for not liking the haircut

Joelle: Oh my God, yes. So wromg

Nay: Jonathan Van Ness would cut her hair--

Michael: I love it!

Nay: He would be like, "It's gorg!"

Brennan: Yes!

Joelle: "It's fabulous!"

Nay: "It's gorg-ina!"

Michael: "It's gorgeous."

Joelle: I mean, people have been imitating that for decades

Brennan: Oh yeah

Brennan: As for me, for the Pride float, I feel very represented by Rosemary

Michael: I do too

Brennan: As I think I expressed. Literally the part where she stops feeling pain for the first time in three months? I cried during that scene

Kara: Yeah

Brennan: It's such a relief. I don't think it needs a Pride float, but it can get a cooldown tent

Joelle: Cooldown tents

Brennan: Sure!

Michael: How about "Pride moments"? That is a very emotional part, and I reacted to that too, this time, because I felt it. I sort of felt that way when I came out

Kara: And it was sort of like, as soon as it came out, everything else was okay

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Such a relief!

Kara: All the other nonsense with the men, you know, telling her what to do, and the pain and her fears, it's okay

Joelle: It's the first time the audience, you're aware the Devil is in her, too

Kara: Right

Joelle: Because the baby's responding to her--

Brennan: Yeah

Kara: Right

Joelle: Like, "Oh, she's upset, calm Mommy down."

Michael: Yeah

Kara: Right. "I'm in danger…"

Joelle: Freaked me the hell out! So creepy!

Quotes
Michael: We have a very thick show tonight

Brennan: Oooh!

Michael: We have a lot to get through

Nay and Brennan: Double "C" thick

Nay: Yeah

Michael: I wish I could do paper sounds to show how thick it is

Brennan: You may remember Joelle from our Heavenly Creatures episode

Michael: Yes

Joelle: So good, so sexy

Kara: Oh, you did an episode on it?

Joelle: I did

Kara: I loved it

Joelle: It's my favorite, I love it

Michael: It was really great

Joelle: It came to me right as my sexual awakening was happening and I was like, "I. Love. Lesbians!"

Kara: Murderers

Nay: Yes. Lesbian murderers

Joelle: Maybe I am one (chuckles)

Michael: So our guest tonight is one of my favorite people on earth. She's brilliant, hilarious, bold, sassy and knows what the fuck she wants. She has produced on many a Emmy-winning show, including Family Guy, American Dad! and Cosmos (20XX), which also won the Peabody Award for educational content. She runs the very successful, hilarious, enlightening blog Teen Sleuth and has also written for the Huffington Post. Her professional resume is one for the books, and so is her (indistinct) one as she's done work to protect animals, the environment, women and many other things. Everyone, please welcome my dear friend, a queer ally icon and a walking thesaurus, Kara Vallow.

Kara: Thank you for having me

Michael: Thanks for coming!

Kara: And I'm sorry that I had to bail on The Stepford Wives but I weirdly had a freaky case of laryngitis

Nay: Oh no!

Michael: Yeah!

Kara: Yeah. It was bizarre

Brennan: And famously not great for podcasts

Kara: Yeah, I know. I was like, "I can still do it! I feel okay. But I can't really talk."

Michael: Can't speak

Kara: But I'm glad it forced you guys all to watch it, it's such a good movie

Michael: Yeah, it was a good show, but I'm actually more excited that we're doing this movie with you

Brennan: (deep voice) Oh yeah

Michael: Knowing you--

Brennan: (laughing) That was really deep, wasn't it?

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I'm really glad. And we can talk about Stepford through this, because they kind of--

Kara: Well the books are written by the same--

Brennan: By Ira Levin

Kara: Genius

Michael: Yeah.

Kara:  American, underrated American author

Michael: Ooof. Great author.

Michael: I will say this every week until the show is over, but I'm still totally in love-- meaning the show I'm about to bring up, not this show

Brennan: Oh, okay!

Michael: The Act continues to amaze me week in and week out

Joelle: I'm afraid to start that show

Michael: It's so hard to watch

Joelle: I'm not mentally prepared for it

Michael: It's one of the hardest things i've ever sat through in terms of watching something

Joelle: Have you watched all the documentaries about that?

Michael: Oh yeah

Joelle: Me too

Michael: It's such a horrible story, but there's something about Munchausen-by-proxy where I'm like, "Give me everything!"

Joelle: Me too

Michael: Yeah. (to Kara).Have you been watching The Act?

Kara: I haven't watched it yet

Michael: Okay, so, it's hard to watch because of how fucking accurate their performances are. Like Patricia Arquette is that woman. Chloe Sevigny drinking and smoking? Automatic slam dunk

Kara: Who does she play?

Michael: She plays the neighbor across the street

Joelle: Nice!

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Joelle: Like nosy neighbor, like peeking at them?

Michael: Yes

Joelle: Oh my God. Okay, I really have a huge crush on Chloe, so you know

Michael: She's so great in it. Like one of her first scenes in the first episode is like (snaps fingers) boom, it's her character and you know who she is

Joelle: Ahh! Yes

Michael: But Joey King plays Gypsy and she just continues to break my heart, amaze the hell out of me and also scare the absolute shit out of me all within fifty minutes each week

Joelle: Are you predicting awards for these ladies, or at least noms?

Michael: I read this really great article that Patricia is a lock, but that especially in the category which is Limited Series--

Joelle: Yeah

Michael: It's such a, there's not a big history with that category yet

Kara: Is that the Ryan Murphy division?

Michael: Yeah. And it's been dominated by--

Joelle: (laughing) "The Ryan Murphy division"?

Michael: And it's been dominated by-- it really is

Kara: He created it for himself

Joelle: He's so good!

Michael: He essentially did

Joelle: I did not realize that he had created it

Michael: With his shows they essentially had to create this category

Joelle: That makes sense

Michael: But it's been dominated by veterans. So I was reading this article and it was literally like, "Please don't forget about Joey King." I hope she does. I dunno. This article, the brief history of the category leads me to believe that she won't, but she should. Because she steals the show from Patricia Arquette

Joelle: Listen. But have you been watching Fosse/Verdon, because…

Michael: No, not yet

Joelle: Michelle (Williams) could for sure wipe categories with her performance. I'm currently working on a piece, Im just really frustrated. I don't care about Bob Fosse's journey at all on this show. I'm like, "We have seen genius men do stupid things and destroy their relationships and then went into…"

Kara: Yep

Joelle: No one cares! (Gwen) Verdon's out here raising a child by herself, trying to dance in her forties, doing it successfully, trying to launch a new straightforward acting-- like all of her storylines is so gripping and interesting…

Michael: I love her

Joelle: And Michelle, the things she's just doing with her face, the way she reads people without a lot of dialogue in which to read them, because Verdon is very nice and friendly and all the stories about her, "Oh, she's a lovely human being." But she's tearing this man to shreds and it's very subtle and perfect

Michael: Someone tweeted a non-verbal thing that she did with her hands and her face

Joelle: Where she's crying in the corner?

Michael: No, it was a hand movement but it was almost like a, "Fuck you," but it was just her turning around

Joelle: Yes!

Michael: I like, gasped when I saw it. Like (gasps loudly)

Nay: (amused) You're gay

Joelle: She has another moment like that when she's crying, but she isn't wiping her face, it's like a natural inclination

Michael: Yes! I saw that too. I was like, (chortles) "Bitch!"

Joelle: It's ''so. Damn. Good!'' There's a scene on the beach where she's reading her husband for, like he cheated on her and he's like, "I can't finish the film without you!" And she's like, "You picked a great location. You're a stunning director. Look at this beach, it's beautiful! The only thing is I don't believe your performance." I was like, "What is happening?!" It's so snarky and mean…

Michael: (sighs) She's so great

Joelle: Right in the heart. It's wonderful and they really should have just made it Verdon, and like Bob Fosse gets to dance in the background or something

Kara: That's good to hear 'cause I was afraid it was just another story about a, you know, manchild

Joelle: You might wanna fast-forward through a couple of the scenes where you're just like, "Him again?"

Kara: I'm recording it so

Joelle: Well, last week's episode, which weirdly was like, "It's a Verdon episode," but we spend so much time with Bob trying to edit Cabaret, I was like, "(sighs) I get it. He's gonna sleep with his assistant. There he goes! That's it. I don't care!"

Michael: Yeah, that's why I couldn't get into The Wife. (to Joelle) Did you see The Wife, with Glenn Close?

Joelle: Mmm-mm

Michael: That's because it was about a crybaby manchild for like the first ninety-five minutes

Joelle: Yes

Kara: Like a woman supports, the woman behind the...

Michael: Exactly. Yeah. And then she has her big scene at the end and you're just like, "Mmmkay. Yeah."

Kara: "There it is."

Nay: I watched The Eyes of My Mother

Brennan: Oh! As recommended by last week's guest

Nay: Yeah

Kara: What's that?

Nay: It's a movie on Netflix, and it's fucking crazy, so I loved it.

Kara: Well, what is it?

Nay: A horror movie

Kara: Oooh!

Joelle: Does someone steal their mom's eyes?

Nay: It's beautiful---

Michael: Can you give just a quick logline?

Nay: (silence)

Michael: Just watch it?

Nay: Yeah, just watch it

Michael: (chuckles).Okay

Nay: You know how I don't watch trailers and I don't like, yeah

Michael: Yeah, you're so great about not--

Nay: And I'm so glad that I didn't know anything. Like I couldn't expect anything about the movie because it's like batshit (laughs)

Michael: Okay. I'm adding this because the next movie I have in our queue is from you, and it's Angst (1982) from what you and Jordan were saying

Nay: Yes

Michael: And we're talking like 1982 foreign film, right?

Nay: Yes. The trailer is a three-minute trailer on Shudder, it's fucking bonkers.

Nay: (laughing) This movie's nuts

Michael: I'm like, "Is this real?"

Nay: I know

Michael: It reminds me of Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer

Nay: It's wild

Kara: Oooh, I remember that

Michael: Yeah, that's a fucked up movie

Kara: That's a fucked up movie

Nay: And I also saw something that I'll talk about later with Brennan

Brennan: I'm so excited!

Nay: Hint hint

Michael: And I watched Halloween III this week

Joelle: Aw, classics!

Michael: Yeah, Brian had never seen it

Brennan: (gasps) What did he think?

Michael: He thought it was so weird

Brennan: He's right

Michael: But he's like, "I kind of liked that movie." And I'm like, "I think you're right." (laughs)

Brennan: (chuckles) Yeah

Joelle: You should!

Michael: Have you ever seen Halloween III, Kara?

Kara: No

Michael: It's so weird, I think you'd love it. It's like a weird, druids are like--

Joelle: Where is (Michael) Myers in his arc with this one?

Michael: This is without Myers, so Myer-less

Joelle: Wait, what happened

Kara: Why am I not remembering this?

Joelle: So who's the killer in (Halloween) III?

Brennan: There's evil Halloween masks

Michael: There is no killer. It's about an evil Halloween mask maker. It's so bizarre

Joelle: Okay

Kara: Oh, no

Michael: With Halloween III they made an attempt, for those not in the know, they attempted to start an anthology series. So starting with III, every year they were gonna do a story on Halloween, but with different evil

Joelle: Interesting

Michael: And it was an experiment that at the time, critically and commercially landed with a thud. But over the years, especially within the last five I'd say, or even three, it's found a brand-new audience and people appreciate it and it's become considered one of the better Halloween films in the franchise

Joelle: It's interesting to me as we now approach a universal storytelling, which is something I talked a whole lot about recently, the idea of what intrigues us and how stories spin off. I would have never thought Halloween would-- how far did they get into an anthology series? Just III?

Michael and Brennan: Just the one

Brennan: And then they went back to Michael

Joelle: They were like, "That did not sell. Scrap it?"

Michael: Five, six years later they brought back Michael Myers

Joelle: Okay, wow. Interesting

Brennan: It suffers from the curse of maligned sequels at the time, in that people slingshot into loving it way too much

Joelle: Absolutely true

Brennan: It's a very fun, crazy movie but it's not a ten out of ten movie

Joelle and Kara: Right

Michael: No, I mean none of it makes sense. There's a lot of you're just like, connecting the dots and you're like, "Okay! I'm with you. I'm with ya."

Brennan: Also, it's a blast

Michael: It's a blast. It involves a piece of Stonehenge, it's, yeah. It's so weird

Joelle: I'm so excited to see this movie

Michael: Irish factory maker, owner, in this small coastal town of California. They have a town curfew, it's just so weird

Kara: Town curfew?

Michael: Yeah

Kara: I just watched Afterlife, the Ricky Gervais show on Netflix

Michael: Oh yeah

Kara: Which is like, Ricky Gervais is like the defeated anti-hero whose wife just died of cancer

Michael: Ooof

Kara: So he's only alive to feed his dog and he's just miserable, making everyone's life miserable. He's sort of committed to acting like a thundering asshole to everyone in town and it's really, really good. I was surprised it got scathing reviews. And every review seemed to be copying someone else's review. They all seemed to say the exact same thing and I thought it was really really good

Michael: I'll have to check that out

Kara: And he says his thing is you know, he has a good day when he doesn't want to run around and shoot everyone in the face and murder everybody

Michael: I feel that!

Nay: (sotto voce) Dang!

Kara: It's sort of like a village of idiots and everyone is sort of like a-- the mailman's an idiot, the local streetwalker is an idiot. And he's so just devastated and over it. At one point he decides to do heroin because he meets this junkie and he's like, "Well, okay." And he starts doing heroin and feeling good for a little while, enjoying the euphoria, but it's quite good

Michael: Sounds like an interesting character study

Kara: It's excellent. I recommend it

Michael: Kara's a huge fan of made-for-tv movies too--

Brennan: Oooh

Michael: So we share like, I'll get like a chat from her and it'll be a 1981 TV movie that's fully on YouTube

Kara: Yes. It's an excellent genre. It really is

Michael: The old ones, especially, were really well done

Kara: And you know, it's a great format

Michael: So great. People Across the Lake is what I watched recently

Kara: What was that?

Michael: It's about people across the lake…

Kara: I mean, I'm sure I've seen it

Michael: There's a murder across the lake. It's essentially like Rear Window or any one of those kind of movies, but it's people staring (laughing) across the lake

Brennan: Further away?

Michael: (laughing) Yes! So great. And of course it has Patty Duke in it

Kara: Is it Lifetime?

Michael: I think it was one of the major broadcast networks 'cause it was like mid-Eighties

Kara: Uh-huh

Michael: I'm always fascinated looking those up, because sometimes you can find the old ratings for those movies and you'll see that some of them had like, thirty million viewers when it premiered on network television and you're like, "Holy shit!" (starts singing the rhythm of "My Sharona")

Kara: Well, I like when it's like an event

Michael: In the movie?

Kara: Well, the movie itself was an event. But before cable and they were--

Michael: Mmm-hmm. When there was like--

Kara: Everyone was watching the same thing

Michael: Yeah. There was three options and one was a made-for-tv movie

Kara: Yeah

Michael: (starts singing the rhythm from "My Sharona" again) La Llorona!

Brennan: So, as I take upon my funereal somber tones, this is the end of "Producer Brennan's La Llorona Corner"

Kara and Joelle: Awwww!

Joelle: It's been so enjoyable!

Brennan: Oh, thank you so much!

Joelle: Truly!

Brennan: I've been watching and reviewing every film based on La Llorona and we're finally at The Curse of La Llorona, and I would like to welcome a very special guest. Her name is Nay

Nay: (laughing) Yes!

Brennan: And I'm so excited to have someone to talk about one of these movies!

Nay: Yes. Yes. 'Cause I definitely saw it, too

Brennan: Okay, that's--

Michael: When did it come out? Just this past Friday?

Brennan: Yeah. It just came out this past Friday

Michael: It opened at number one

Brennan: Oh! Good for it!

Michael: It made twenty-six million

Brennan: It sure did

Nay: Okay

Michael: (chortling) "It sure did"

Brennan: Look, I always wanted to make it clear from the beginning that I wasn't necessarily excited for The Curse of La Llorona, I just wanted an excuse to watch these movies, and I was right not to be super-excited for The Curse of La Llorona

Michael: I was listening to last week's episode that I wasn't on

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Michael: And I lost my shit this morning in the bathroom, getting ready for work

Nay: That's where you usually lose it

Michael: That's a good place to do it. Where you usually said they were-- what did you say? It made me laugh really hard. You said something to the effect of like, "The genesis of these films came from a really good place and then Americans got their hands on them"?

Brennan: Oh, they sure did!

Michael: Something like that and I was like, "That's so true!"

Kara: That's true of so many things

Brennan: Well, yeah

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: Another example of that, I mean literally everything in this movie is bullshit. In terms of, they cherry pick all the coolest looking parts of Mexican brujeria, which is the witchcraft. And so they're like, "They do stuff with eggs! We're not gonna research what they do with the eggs, but eggs are great, keep 'em in. Like here's something he's gonna shake around and La Llorona's allergic to some kind of seed from a tree that was next to her…"

Michael: As a human?

Brennan: Yeah

Nay: Yeah. The only thing that witnessed her demise is…

Michael: A tree?

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Got it

Brennan: It's very clearly they're making up their own rules as they go along. And literally, if you want a better egg scene involving a bruja, look at Candyman 3: Day of the Dead, and also just generally a much better movie, which is not high praise. So Nay, was there…

Nay: I liked it

Brennan: Okay

Nay: Well, I thought it was really fun to watch

Brennan: Yeah!

Nay: It kept my attention

Michael: I mean they're like The Conjuring films, right? Same vein?

Nay: Well, Annabelle's literally in this movie

Michael: Oh she is

Joelle: Whaaat?

Nay and Brennan: She has a brief cameo

Nay: I think the kids are really good in it

Brennan: Yeah, they're solid

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: The cast is generally good

Nay: Yeah

Michael: I mean I love Linda Cardellini

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: Yeah, no, she's--

Michael: Like I can't wait for her show that comes out in two weeks, or next week

Joelle: On Apple TV?

Michael: Yes!

Joelle: I just saw a poster for that today and got really excited, sorry

Michael: Yeah, can't wait. Sorry, okay.

Brennan: No, that's okay. Her kind of tense roars of screams as she's defending her children are really good

Nay: You know--

Brennan: Really?

Nay: She sucked so bad at it

Brennan: At defending her children?

Nay: I kept being like; time and time again, some really fucked up shit would happen to her kids and I would be like, "You were gone again!" She just keeps leaving her kids alone!

Brennan: Oh yeah. Also--

Michael: In the car?

Nay: Yes!

Brennan: When they lock the kids in a closet to try and defend them, she's like, "I'm gonna stand guard. Downstairs. Away from the closet."

Nay: Yes! "In another room. With the door shut. While talking to a man." It's insane

Michael: And by the way, I probably should have said, "Spoiler warning," but who cares. This movie's not gonna be ruined for anybody

Brennan: This is more window dressing than spoilers I would say

Michael: Yes. Thank you

Brennan: Let's avoid actual spoilers. But I will say Patricia Velasquez is serving some real Penelope Cruz in the beginning of Gothika realness

Nay: Yes!

Michael: I kind of forgot she was in Gothika

Nay: Oh, I love Gothika

Brennan: That movie's fun

Joelle: That movie's so good!

Nay: Yeah. That's so true. I liked a lot of (The Curse of La Llorona)

Brennan: Yeah, I think my big problem with it; I mean I just always want a good Llorona movie that actually understands anything about her--

Michael: Of the lore?

Brennan: Or her lore, or her character, anything. And this is obviously not one of them. It's kind of forced into the James Wan-produced framework in this Conjuring franchise…

Michael: Is it part of The Conjuring franchise?

Nay: It is part of the universe, the Conjuring universe. That's what I call it.

Brennan: It is. If it makes a lot of money, then yes. It's in the extended univer-- it's like how Supergirl is kind of in the DC Universe

Michael: The priest character is from one of the Annabelle films, correct?

Brennan: Yeah, he's from Annabelle

Nay: Yeah

Michael: So it is, whether they say it is or not, it's part of the universe

Brennan: Yes

Michael: I'm surprised they didn't advertise it as part of the universe

Nay: It says, "Part of The Conjuring universe"

Brennan: Well, it says, "From the producers of The Conjuring universe"

Michael: It says, "From the producers of The Conjuring universe"

Nay: Ohhh. Okay

Brennan: It's kind of iffy. I think it's trying to do like an ending of Split kind of shock a little bit? But everybody knows. But the thing about these Conjuring movies is that they're almost annoyingly Catholic

Michael: I agree with you

Brennan: Look, a lot of the culture in Mexico and La Llorona is built around Catholicism and that kind of thing. But La Llorona and brujeria exist in this kind of separate sphere that doesn't necessarily belong in the Catholic sphere. Obviously in Mexico those things kind of get crossed, and things like that, but it's just… it feels wrong. It doesn't work. It's not a creepy nun, it's La Llorona and leave her alone!

Joelle: Yolanda Mercado for TheWrap essentially said the same thing and she kind of filled in how her childhood here in L.A. and growing up with those stories kind of impacted her hopes and expectations for the movie

Brennan: Oh my God! Oh yeah

Joelle: Like, "This is my boogeyman and it's weird that this is what we got: a whitewashed version of it."

Brennan: Oh, absolutely!

Michael: The director, though--

Brennan: He is not Mexican

Michael: Oh, he's not

Brennan: His name is Michael Chavez. I believe he hails from maybe Spain? But he is not a Mexican national, and it shows. But no, it was a decent time in the theater

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: I think I was coming at it from a different lens

Michael: Oooh, he's directing Conjuring 3

Brennan: He sure is

Nay: Yeah, it was like number twenty on your series of watches

Brennan: Yeah, I have come a long way

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: It's obviously it's not toward the bottom of the list of movies that I watched

Joelle: Is it better than the animated one that I am desperately seeking?

Brennan: Oh no no no. It's not better than that

Joelle: Your review of that one was so exciting I was like, "I have to watch this movie. It sounds awful, but amazing."

Brennan: It's nutballs. And I'd also recommend a movie that I was honestly kind of on the fence on, but shares the name of this movie. It's from 1963, called La Maldicìon de La Llorona and in English it was called The Curse of the Crying Woman. There's a really easily available English dub, and that's a much more fun movie also

Joelle: Okay!

Brennan: Just to sum up: Candyman 3, great. La Maldicìon de La Llorona, very good. (The Curse of La Llorona), fine.

Michael: So wikipedia includes it as part of The Conjuring franchise now. Calls it the "sixth film in the franchise"

Brennan: Yeah

Michael: Annabelle Comes Home looks fun as fuck, though

Nay: Oh yeah

Joelle: I'm gonna be first in line for all the Annabelle movies!

Michael: Coming out this summer. And I do love the Conjuring movies

Nay: Oh yeah, me too

Michael: That relationship between Patrick Wilson and Vera Farmiga is so good

Joelle: (sighs) So good. And she just died, so sad!

Michael: Oh, the real woman

Joelle: The real woman, yes.

Brennan: I was like, "Vera Farmiga died?"

Michael: Lorraine Warren

Joelle: Vera Farmiga's fine! I'm so sorry!

Michael: Okay, so that new Godzilla trailer came out and she has a bit of voice over in it. I like, believe everything she says

Joelle: It's true. She's gonna be the Bryan Cranston of this movie

Michael: Yeah

Joelle: Like the one thing holding it together

Michael: She could come up to me and be like, "You're four-foot-one." I'd be like, "Okay. Thanks, Vera!

Joelle: "Okay!" I feel all the Farmigas have this. Her sister Taissa too has that thing where she just says stuff and you're like, "Believable."

Michael: I was watching The Conjuring because I heard that voice over. So that night I got home and I wanted Vera in my life

Joelle: Sure

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Michael: So I started watching The Conjuring and she is so good, like she's such a good actor that she could sell you on anything. And I think that movie without her would be total bullshit

Joelle: Yeah I agree

Kara: I like the husband a lot in it

Brennan: Patrick Wilson? Yeah, of course

Joelle: Yes

Michael: I mean, I  like the entire cast, but there's something about her that grounds it in reality to me that makes you go, "This is really happening to these people."

Joelle: The film seems predicated on her fear as a mother, and also her religiosity. Whereas his is like, he's like, "Yes, we're religious and this is how we battle things." But for her there's clearly a deeper connection to the thing

Michael: Yeah, I like his matter of fact, like I like the juxtaposition between the two of them doing essentially the same thing, y'know?

Joelle: Totally

Michael: I mean, I love The Conjuring 2. Patrick Wilson with a guitar?

Brennan: That scene…

Michael: New scene

Joelle: The appearance of the Thin Man was not okay for me. I was like, "I wanna lay down now. I don't like it!"

Michael: All right!

Brennan: Okay, that's that for that. I might have a little bonus extra for next time. It's not a movie review, but I might have a little list I've prepared, but that's for next time

Michael: That's for next week?

Brennan: Yeah

Michael: Okay

Brennan: I just don't want it to die yet

Kara: The what?

Brennan: The La Llorona Corner

Kara: Oh, okay

Michael: He's been talking about these for how many weeks now? Twelve?

Brennan: God, it feels like forever. Probably twelve? Yeah, give or take. Ten or twelve?

Michael: Ten or twelve

Brennan: Yeah, I'm gonna miss her

Michael: And you did Children of the Corn before that

Brennan: I did

Michael: Now you need to find another long-running…

Brennan: I do, but I don't wanna be the…

Michael: Do Hellraiser?

Brennan: "Marathon Guy" necessarily, coz I don't want to go into something if I'm not feeling it. Like I don't want to force myself into it, so it'll come when it comes

Michael: You take your time. You do you

Brennan: Thank you

Michael: We care about your well-being

Brennan: Thank you so much

Michael: The film we are talking about today was written for the screen and directed by Roman Polanski, based on the novel by Ira Levin. Produced by William Castle, which I totally forgot--

Brennan: Oh yeah

Michael: When I saw the title card, I actually went like, "Eeeeee!" It stars Mia Farrow, Ruth Gordon, who won an Oscar for her performance and John Cassavetes. It was also nominated for Best Adapted Screenplay and it was also nominated for four Golden Globes, Ruth Gordon also winning for Best Supporting Actress there, too. Everybody, we are talking Rosemary's Baby.

Joelle: Hell yes!

Michael: And there is so much to talk about.

Michael: So, Kara, put you on the hot seat. Kara picked this movie

Kara: I did

Michael: Why?

Kara: I love this movie. And I have an idea, in my head, it goes back to when I was gonna be hosting, co-hosting the podcast about Stepford Wives. I have this idea that there may be this canon of movies in the Seventies, that like, you would be hard pressed today to find depicted men so awfully in a movie as the husband in The Stepford Wives and the husband in Rosemary's Baby. I don't even know if you could get away with it now

Nay: We need to get back to that

Kara: No, I know

Joelle: Tyler Perry's movies are the closest thing I can think of

Kara: Exactly. Exactly

Nay: But not on purpose

Michael: But then he'll do a movie where it's like a woman cheats on her husband and gives her AIDS

Joelle: Yeah. Tyler's messy (laughs)

Kara: A husband sells off his wife's uterus to satanists to get a part in a Broadway play

Brennan: And it's a challenging part, because he needs to use crutches. It's super difficult

Joelle: It's just so hard for him!

Michael: It's not even like a high-paying gig

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Kara: I know. And it's, you know, it's just…

Michael: And that's your Shady Summary by the way

Kara: That's my Shady Summary, exactly. Yes

Kara: I had a friend and we used to talk about like, some of these movies may be a government plot to get women back in the workforce in the Seventies, because they depicted men so grotesquely and if you think about, what's the husband's name in Stepford Wives?

Michael: Guy

Kara: No. Walter

Michael: Oh yeah

Kara: He's hideous. And like, you know, the idea of them being together romantically is so disgusting. But someone who sells, basically slaughters his wife and turns her into a robot, and then a two-bit actor sells his wife's body to satanists, they're the most despicable depictions of husbands in movies that I can think of. Can you think of any current movies where anything remotely like that happens?

Michael: That's a good question. I always find it fascinating when older movies do do that. Because we talked about a movie recently, what was that Talia Shire film?

Brennan: Windows

Michael: Windows. And like, the cop is like a skeezy disgusting creep in that, but I always find it fascinating and this is probably a bad example, 'cause it's clear that Guy is a prick. But in (Windows) I feel like is a good example of in today's lens, we actually realize the guy is a creep and is gaslighting this woman who is being stalked and raped and all these awful things into a relationship. So I always like, kind of tiptoe around it, 'cause I'm like, "Did they know Guy was gross when they made this movie?" I think here for sure they did

Joelle: Yes

Brennan: Yeah

Michael: But there are movies back then where they probably were like-- Windows is a good example where they were just like, "Isn't he just an upstanding cop making sure this woman gets home?" And it's like he's actually going after her when she's at a low point because like it's the time to go after her in his eyes

Kara: I think they absolutely did it on purpose

Michael: Here, for sure

Kara: And with Stepford Wives, also

Joelle: I brought in old reviews, so we could talk about it

Kara: You what?

Joelle: I bring in old reviews from the time period so we could try to get a landscape of how it was received initially

Michael: Oh, good!

Joelle: So I have Roger Ebert, I have snippets of Pauline Kael, but the New Yorker's stupid and won't release all of her reviews. Let me see it! I have to buy a Pauline Kael book so I can have those on hand

Michael: Yeah, I saw Ebert gave it four stars

Joelle: Ebert loved it. Kael gave it a hundred, four out of four as well. They both liked it. Roger Ebert's review… he was essentially saying the way, the book version apparently when you read it, the ending is shocking and he gave a lot of kudos for writing and directing and the fact that it sort of flow, you knew what was happening but you're still like, "I wanna stop this train!" the whole time. Oh my God, the phone booth scene. "Get out! What is happening! Who is standing outside of it?!"

Michael: Yeah

Kara: That's a sort of fake out--

Michael: Yes

Kara: In the phone booth scene where you think that--

Michael: The man standing there

Kara: Right, the devil worshipper--

Joelle: Has locked her in, it's so scary

Kara: It's so scary

Joelle: You think it's actually happening

Kara: And it's just some other dude waiting for the phone, right?

Joelle: Mmm-hmm, mmm-hmmm

Michael: What's interesting is that one of the biggest changes Roman Polanski said he made in the change from novel to screen was using ambiguity. And he wanted you, the viewer to think at all times that maybe there is just the slightest possibility that Rosemary's actually imagining all of this

Kara: Right

Joelle: Do you guys remember your first viewing, and did that happen for you?

Michael: I don't think so

Kara: I don't think so either

Michael: Nay, you?

Joelle: I don't remember, but I don't think so, but it is pretty-- it's unlike The Stepford Wives which was based on a book by the same author, it's pretty true to the book

Brennan: Oh, absolutely

Joelle: Except it for the ending, it's pretty much like note-by-note

Brennan: Yeah! I think to your question Joelle also, it's hard to approach this movie without knowing it's the movie about the woman who has Satan's child

Joelle: Yes, for sure

Brennan: Because you know that's been going around since 1968. I think we've unofficially become the Ira Levin podcast, because we've done this and The Stepford Wives. He also wrote Sliver

Joelle: Right, I've watched Sliver

Michael: We've already covered that

Michael: Oh my God, there is so much to talk about

Kara: There is so much to talk about

Michael: I don't even know where to start

Nay: It's a long-ass movie, first of all

Michael: It is a really long movie

Joelle: It, okay, I saw Avengers on Tuesday and then I watched this Wednesday. I was like, "First of all, I remember this feeling so long, but I'm already done, this wasn't long at all!"

Michael: Oh yeah, because Avengers is three hours long

Joelle: It's three hours and twelve minutes, (Rosemary's Baby) is two hours and sixteen minutes and it did not feel long at all

Michael: That's the thing. It pulls you in, to me immediately. I like how it kind of starts off as like this almost, I don't wanna say the director's name -esque like maybe lighthearted comedy set in New York and Manhattan

Joelle and Brennan: Oh

Michael: It kind of gives you that flavor, especially in the beginning with those pink title cards

Joelle: It's got those cursive pink title cards…

Michael: Yeah

Joelle: That makes it seem like it's gonna be something pretty

Michael: Yeah. And I almost, is that her humming along in the beginning?

Joelle: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: That's Mia Farrow

Michael: That is Mia Farrow, right?

Nay: Okay

Michael: That stuck with me the first time, like I noticed that for the first time this time. But I love the setup of cute couple getting their first big apartment in the city. "What's gonna happen?" You know what I mean?

Kara: Totally

Michael: And it's just like, "Oh, Fuck."

Brennan: Yeah. It's that The Birds changeover where it could be a wacky screwball rom-com and then it's hella not

Michael: Yeah! The noises through the wall could've been the wacky neighbor having a party

Brennan: Yeah, coz they're saying wacky things like, "Rarr rarr I'm a neighbor!" I don't remember

Joelle: I loved that

Brennan: I couldn't hear anything that she said

Joelle: The pacing of this film is really interesting, I think, because you're a full hour in before (Rosemary) takes any kind of stand for herself. To your Stepford point, as a woman I'm watching and trying to picture my grandmother's married around this time and what her relationship with my grandfather would be like, and you know, what we let men get away with now versus then. And it takes her all the way until, I forget the moment where she breaks and she's like, "No. I am not doing this any more."

Michael: It's when she doesn't want to go to; it's after she sees Doctor Hill, she has the party

Joelle: Yes

Brennan: Yeah

Michael: And her girlfriends are like, "Oh my God Rosemary, this is not normal."

Joelle: Yeah yeah yeah. And then (Guy), is this before or after, this is a long movie, she gets the book from the hutch and then he hides it from her--

Brennan: Yeah

Joelle: And that seems to be this moment where she's like, "Okay, I'm being completely treated like a child. I don't wanna do this anymore. I'm done."

Michael: That's when he puts it on a top shelf

Joelle: Yeah. And then it takes us  it's directly in the middle, it takes the last forty-five, fifty minutes is her trying to suss all her feelings out and escape and then those last five minutes are such crunchy goodness. I actually forgot that the movie had an additional five minutes after the crib

Michael: Same

Joelle: There's like ten minutes after that. I was like, "No, the crib is the final shot." And it is, but it's a second revisit and I had completely forgotten

Michael: I forgot too. Her reaction--

Joelle: Her like, her (laughs) come to Jesus moment

Michael: Like, "I'm a mom."

Joelle: "Come to Lucifer." Like, "Yeah. You're gonna be taking care of this baby 'cause you still love it," and that is so, so mind blowing and good, I really enjoy it.

Kara: One of, I think the most horrifying moment to me in that movie is not when she realizes she gave birth to the devil's child. When her doctor fucks her over. It's like everyone fucked her over. And that is just, you go to your doctor and you think that he's on your side and in walks in fucking Saperstein and all those men and you know, it's just…

Brennan: Even when you escape the clutches of the cult of the coven, you're still in the cult of the patriarchy who do not want to believe you or understand your pain

Kara: Yeah

Joelle: Well, yeah. And the disillusionment of not only who you can trust, but she like has again that moment in the phone booth, which for me is sort of like the pinnacle of the film, because it's like all the emotions-- she has three out of body moments where she speaks to no one

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Joelle: She's sitting at the park by the fountain, and I forget what her direct lines were, but she's basically saying, "It's gonna be okay. We're just gonna do this and it's gonna be fine." And then the moment during the actual rape where she's like, "My God, this is not a dream. It's happening!" Which, I don't know if there's a more horrifying moment in cinema history than that moment? To be awake but still in a dream and to visualize it in that way, and for it to be the most awful thing that's happened to a person, that's startling and horrifying. But then you have the great moment in the phone booth where she's (whispers) "They're all witches."

Kara: And up to that point, she doesn't know what she's carrying, per se, right?

Joelle: Mmm-hmm

Kara: She's realizing that all the forces are lined up against her and that it has to do with her pregnancy, right? But she's still maybe thinking that the coven wants her baby for the blood or something?

Joelle: Right right right

Michael: She doesn't know what it is until she sees it

Kara: She doesn't know that her actual womb has been co-opted, right? Until--

Joelle: Until they tell her! Until they tell her who the father is!

Kara: Right

Joelle: She's like, "Those aren't his father's eyes." And they're like, "Satan is his dad. You don't remember."

Brennan: "A-doi!"

Joelle: "That's what happened."

Kara: Jesus

Michael: There's a clip I wanna play, my note literally just says, "Guy Woodhouse is a fucking dick."

Joelle: Uch!

Kara: Guy Woodhouse? That name

Brennan: (amused) I literally don't know which clip you're pulling up right now 'cause it could be any of these

Michael: It's the dessert clip

Brennan: Ah. When they're eating the chocolate mouse

Joelle: (groans in disgust) Sorry, everything makes me so pissed off in this movie

(The clip is played)

Rosemary: Do you notice an undertaste?

Guy: That's silly honey, there is no undertaste

Kara: (indistinct) eating it

Rosemary: There is

Guy: C'mon now, the old bat slaved all day. Now eat it!

Rosemary: I don't like it

Guy: It's delicious!

Kara: "Here comes the airplane…"

Rosemary: Here, you can have mine

Guy: Alright, don't eat it. There's always something wrong

Michael: And it just escalates

Rosemary: If it's gonna turn into a big thing…

Guy: Look, if you really can't stand it, just don't eat it

Kara: "I fuckin' love it."

Rosemary: Mmm, it's delicious! No undertaste at all! Would you turn the record over, please?

Brennan: This is when she spits it into her napkin

Rosemary: There, Daddy. Do I get a gold star?

Guy: You get two of them

Michael: So Nay, what were you thinking when you were watching that?

Nay: Just how I really wish someone would tell me what I will and won't eat, at my own dinner table. I mean, I just hate, yeah; obviously like many people I spent a lot of time in my life doing what I'm told

Michael: Yep

Nay: Raised in church every damn day of the week, like being constantly told to do something and doing it so that I would avoid trouble and hell. And I just feel like it has sprung me to the other side of this thing where I'm like rebellion one hundred and fifty percent of the time, and I just, I was so angry and I'm just so glad that was my reaction to someone telling me, or my imagined reaction to someone telling me that I have to finish something I don't want to finish

Michael: Right

Nay: And then I got so grateful to be somewhere in my life where I'm like, no one can tell me what the fuck to do

Kara: Isn't it a great feeling? Like, I say this all the time in my house, "Nobody can, I can do whatever I want. You're an adult, an independent adult and you can do whatever you want."

Nay: Yes. Yeah, not eating the fucking chocolate mousse

Kara: Fucking poison chocolate mousse

Michael: It's bizarre to think that there's so many people out there who don't have that autonomy, you know?

Kara: Sure

Michael: And this whole movie is about, just like essentially what you said, Kara, having your body and your space and your house and just your life, like every aspect just taken from you

Joelle: I actually took notes of every time, and I won't go through all of them because it's essentially the whole movie

Michael: Because there's a million of them?

Jolle: But essentially every time somebody belittled or made her think something different

Michael: Everybody!

Kara: Oh, it's insane

Michael: Her haircut! Oh my God

Joelle: So, the hair situation destroyed me

Michael: She looks so cute!

Joelle: As someone who's very connected to hair-- She looks amazing

Michael: "She needs more gay friends," is what I kept thinking

Nay: She needs friends

Michael: Yeah

Joelle: There's so many things to say. Okay, the point where she was talking to her doctor, a lot of the doctor stuff, especially knowing what we know now about how doctors tend not to believe women, particularly if you're a Black woman, particularly if you're a fat Black woman, kind of, it's awful, but I don't see it frequently in films in the way that doctors can abuse their positions of power. When she's like, "You know, I'm not going outside any more," and it's like, "You don't need to go outside."

Michael: "Don't read."

Joelle: What? My quality of life is so low, why would you ever tell someone who is capable of going outside, "It's fine. Just stay in."

Michael: He literally tells her not to read books

Joelle: Yeah, nothing. Her pain, which again, if you've ever--

Michael: "You'll be able to--" Not to interrupt you

Joelle: No, go for it

Michael: But when he was like, ""It'll go away in two days." I was literally wanting to throw the remote at the TV and be like, "How the fuck do you know?!"

Joelle: Yeah! Right.

Michael: "I know you're a doctor, but…"

Joelle: But again, if you're a woman and been to the doctor with legitimate pain and you're excused, essentially before any actual investigation of that pain has happened; I hurt my back in 2012…

Michael: Oh, wow

Joelle: It took six months and almost being paralyzed for someone to take that seriously. It took a nurse being like, "Do you have these symptoms? You have to go to surgery right now. You cannot. No." They were gonna give me a shot and send me home, and she was like, "No. We're booking you for a room right now. You have to have surgery." Almost lost my legs. Fun!

Michael: Holy shit!

Brennan: Oh my God!

Joelle: So yeah, the first thing when I see this movie, that's always what resonates is that the doctors are constantly like, A.) "I don't believe you're in pain," or B.) "Deal with it."

Kara: Particularly because it's a gynecologist and it's like that universal fear of pregnancy

Joelle: Right

Kara: And a woman's most vulnerable state, and particularly in 1966, whenever, this very naive woman with a Catholic background or whatever, she has no agency over her own body. She has turned herself over completely to that fucking OBGYN Satan worshiper

Joelle: Yeah

Kara: So she is going to be like, "Oh, I'll drink those shakes from my neighbor"? That you know, you're friends with

Michael: Why are they white? I was like, "Why is this fucking thing white?"

Joelle: There are so many moments where I was trying to figure out where her line is. Because it seems to be-- it's hard to watch because it's like, "What are you doing?" when she trusts the doctor

Kara: She has that freakout about--

Joelle: People that you're afraid of recommended this guy, I don't understand why you would go and confide in him

Michael: (chuckles) Good point

Kara: Well she does eventually go to this other doctor

Joelle: Yeah

Kara: And he just sells her down the river also. She finally kind of takes, you know, control. She realizes that something's happening and this Doctor Saperstein is a piece of shit. But then it's like, "Oh no! He's the greatest! He's the greatest gynecologist in town! Call him in!"

Joelle: Yeah, she's like, "You wouldn't expect," and he's like, "You certainly wouldn't."

Kara: Exactly

Joelle: "Right. That crazy bitch," and I was like, "What the hell?!"

Michael: It also, it all stems from, there's so many times in the movie where I'm like, "Why? Why?" (to Joelle) Like you said, you hate these neighbors but you're going to their doctor and it's all because of Guy. He did a complete one-eighty--

Kara: He got real friendly

Michael: From getting the dinner, because I always take that scene where she's in the kitchen doing the dishes with Millie, that he's essentially pitching them on…

Kara: Right

Michael: "Can I have your wife's uterus for the next nine months?" And it's just so, it's such a 1960s and Seventies, and I know it still happens today, but it's just like dutiful wife, you know? And she's like begging him, "I don't wanna go!" But she still goes, and even like, how it all starts, he's being a dick to her 'cause his career's finally going, she's upset with him and then he decides, "Now it's time to have a baby."

Kara: "I'm so sorry boo, let me just really focus on you here."

Michael: Yeah! There's that scene where he's literally like, "I'm sorry I've been a dick. Let's have a baby!" And she's like, "Ya mean it?" And it's like, "Ohh."

Joelle: Yeah, and the crazy thing is, ugh! There's so many little moments where you're like, "Wait a minute. I timed it. Sir, if you haven't been paying attention, you don't know when I'm ovulating. How did you… you timed it so that I'm getting pregnant on these two days that you circled? That wasn't you, sir. That was Minnie, when I told her I was on my period, it was day one and Minnie did the calculations."

Michael: Minnie. I called her "Millie".

Brennan: (amused) Oh yeah

Joelle: (sighs) Yeah. There's just so many moments with, God, it's definitely the--

Kara: What a wonderful performance by her. The whole subtext of the movie is there's this sort of naively happy woman who relies entirely on all these men in her life. Like the wisdom of her husband, who's a weak… man, an actor, her doctor and those old neighbors, only to find they're actively conspiring against her and using her. It's just, woop there it is

Joelle: I guess I'm trying to pinpoint where her agency starts and ends? And where, like, do you think she ever had fun? Was this ever love? Or did he pick her and she was like, "Well, I've been picked now, so this is who I'm with!" 'Cause I have such trouble finding where the love is for her.

Brennan: And I think part of, an example of that kind of lack of love is her rote reciting of his credits. Of like, "Here's how you know Guy Woodhouse. He was in Nobody Loves an Albatross, he was in Luther, he did some TV…"

Joelle: Yes

Brennan: You can tell she's used to explaining him and kind of, you know, handing the microphone to him, but she doesn't care about it

Michael: Well, there's even a, the only time she shows genuine happiness to me is in the beginning of the movie when she's like, "Let's get that apartment! Can we please get that apartment?" But she's like begging him like he's her father?

Joelle: Oh, he's gonna have final say because she can't sign anything or open an account without him

Kara: She can't have a credit card

Joelle: Yeah

Michael: Is it just me, or does he already seem completely put out by her? Like he doesn't seem to like her either, you know what I mean? Like he doesn't seem to have any love for her. It's kind of--

Joelle: It's clear he does not love her

Kara: Right. We're seeing it through the eyes of after he's made a pact with Satanists, right?

Michael: Yeah

Kara: We don't see that much prior to then

Michael: But even up 'til then, he's just kind of like, "Okay, we can get the apartment." And then when she wants to makes love, he systematically takes his clothes off

Brennan: That scene is chilling

Michael: Yeah. And it's just like, and Brian and I were discussing, is it like supposed to represent they're so deep in their marriage that it's become like…

Kara: Routine?

Michael: Another routine that they do, or is it just this is how this guy has been?

Kara: I think it's just the way married life is. I mean, it's banal, and--

Michael: What do you think, Nay?

Nay: That's definitely how those people have sex. Every single time

Joelle: Lights off, quiet as hell

Nay: From the first time to the last time, that's how they have sex. Also, have we swept this floor yet? I just-- the idea of my bare skin on this floor?

Michael: Hardwood floor

Joelle: It was the Sixties

Nay: You know, with crumbs and stuff in my back

Michael: Hardwood floors, too

Nay: Yeah

Joelle: So good for your back! Fun!

Michael: Let's get a Swiffer up in this bitch

Nay: She's like, "Oh, I found a shelf!" And puts it on the floor and they eat on that. I'm like, "Did that one inch help you?"

Brennan: I do love a move-in picnic, though. Like when you don't have any furniture set up and you like eat on the floor

Michael: That was such a sitcom thing to me

Nay: (to Brennan) You're cute

Joelle: (to Nay) Have you never done this? I like doing that, too.

Michael: It's cute, it's classic. It reminds me of sitcoms

Joelle: I used to move every single year so I've had many a pizza box on the floor, just like, "Eat it, we're tired, we're done moving now."

Kara: That whole montage, the apartment makeover montage is also, it's like--

Michael: I'm obsessed with that apartment

Kara: Yeah, of course

Michael: Right?

Kara: Of course. It's spectacular

Michael: Right!

Joelle: And it used to be connected to this other ridiculously large apartment! Were there four apartments in this giant complex? How did it work?

Michael: Love it! I love it

Michael: So, to go back to (Rosemary's) agency, Kara, I know you and I had talked earlier before the show about some of the casting?

Kara: Mmm-hmm

Michael: And Nay and Brennan, what did you guys think of…

Kara: The Satanists?

Michael: The Satanist cast is all older. Everyone around her is older. She's the youngest person in the movie. And do you think that was like, what do you think of that? I think it was honestly, obviously a genuine decision by Roman Polanski, but do you think that played into her decision-making

Nay: Well, yeah, she's always made to look especially young and naive and you know...

Kara: Definitely. That's why they chose her

Nay: Yeah. Totally. So

Brennan: Well, yeah. I think this movie's a lot about how the institutions that are already in place are not there for your benefit even though they're trying to convince you that they are. The whole movie's about her learning about that. But she has no reason to believe they don't have her best interests at heart in the beginning

Kara: Well, one of the things-- to that point, it's one of the few movies that's told really effectively from a woman's point of view, right?

Michael: Right. The whole time

Kara: And that's sort of what makes it more, it's like resonance more and has like a-- it's you know, it's more chilling to me because she is this sort of naive, extremely naive woman, who's coming to this determination of something, who has a Catholic schoolgirl background, coming to terms with the fact that everyone in her life is a Satanist

Brennan: Yeah

Joelle: Like everybody, including her personal doctor

Nay: (softly) Damn

Michael: Ooof

Joelle: I think it's also interesting that this is pre-Satanic Panic, but it's not pre-"The youth is going down this weird and very scary road," so to flip those scripts, especially when you have that scene with all of her friends, which is like the greatest sigh of relief

Kara: Yeah. Right

Joelle: "Get the hell out, bad husband!" You lock that door

Kara: He's peeking in the kitchen

Joelle: Right

Kara: Like, "Get the fuck out!"

Joelle: He's demanding to be in, like, "I need to watch," like you've been monitoring her conversations--

Michael: Yeah, first time you're gonna do a fucking dish in your life, dickhead

Joelle: In seventy thousand years, sir. And it, to me, like there are moments where I'm just not sure if it's a time difference or if it's only men were involved in creating this story, but I just sincerely feel like women would be like, "We need to get you to a doctor tonight." Like, "We're getting you out of the house," or, "I'm gonna come pick you up tomorrow and I'm gonna make sure you get to see a doctor and that you're good."

Kara: Right

Joelle: There's just so much, she has so many female friends that I really feel like she would have turned to them earlier or they would have stuck around longer afterwards to be like, "We're going to protect you. Because the things we're seeing… you're in pain and you're pregnant? That's never a good sign!"

Michael: Right. But they isolated her before that because how you mentioned earlier the doctor saying like, "Don't leave the house! Don't read books!"

Kara: Right

Joelle: "Don't talk to your crazy friends for sure!"

Michael: Yeah, literally, they--

Kara: He literally says to her, "Don't listen, don't take advice from your friends who have been pregnant."

Michael: "Those drunk bitches or something," I think is what he said. Literally like, she's being gaslighted by every single person in her life

Kara: Yeah

Michael: It's so fucking crazy

Joelle: The isolation, and the way it's done so slowly and how it just kind of peeks out here and there, like, "You gave me a dead girl's necklace. It's weird. It smells bad, but I'm not gonna trust my better judgment." I think that's really the horror story of it

Michael: Mmm-hmm, "Well you took it so you have to wear it," is what he said to her

Joelle: Yeah, yeah! Well, all the ways that you are made to feel smaller and insecure, I think emotional abuse is again, something not seen very often in films, and when it is, it's almost always pretty immediately followed by physical violence. Although there is one great act of physical violence in this film

Kara: When he rapes her?

Joelle: Yeah. For the most part, it's emotional abuse. For the most part, it's deny your inner thoughts

Michael: Manipulation

Kara: And I think it wasn't that uncommon at the time. You know, that was around the time that my Mom was getting married and having kids and stuff, and she was a doctor, and she wasn't allowed to sign anything--

Joelle: That's so (indistinct)!

Kara: It was, it doesn't seem like it was that long ago, it was sort of our contemporary, being in the Sixties and Seventies, but it was, you know, pre-E.R.A. and you know, women's protection laws and you know, obviously i think she talks about having grown up in some small town

Michael: Omaha? Something like that?

Kara: Omaha? And went to Catholic school or something. Was, you know, moved to the big city by this dude and…

Michael: Did we get a sense, do any of you remember, do we get a sense of when they met and they started dating or anything?

Kara: No

Brennan: No, no

Michael: We just kind of get a short summary of, "He's from here, I'm from there"?

Kara: Yeah

Brennan: Presumably it was New York, but...

Michael: I think he was-- oh, where they met

Brennan: 'Cause he's from Baltimore

Michael: Right

Brennan: So they wouldn't have met in their home towns

Joelle: They wouldn't have crossed over. But it is hard to imagine her picking up her bags and being like, "I'm gonna move to New York, by myself!"

Michael: I can't imagine her doing that with her father, assuming he's alive and being like, "Bye, Dad!"

Joelle: Right

Michael: And him not being like, "You ain't goin'." (chuckles) Let's just assume that he's dead and she has no (indistinct)

Brennan: One thing I wanna bring up about this movie is that there's so much subtext packed into every corner of this admittedly long film. I think that everybody can get something completely different out of it. Like I'm hearing what Joelle is picking up versus what Kara's picking up versus what Michael's picking up. They're all very different things. I wanna hear, Nay, is there anything that you were thinking about watching this movie that hasn't been mentioned yet?

Nay: Nnno. Not that hasn't been mentioned. I really, in this moment just now was thinking about films with emotional abuse in them--

Brennan: Oh yeah

Nay: That aren't necessarily followed by a bunch of physical violence besides, like you said, the rape, the biggest physical violence. I think that's so true, and I was someone that was raised where you were supposed to act that way with your husband, you were supposed to be submissive and you were supposed to be…

Michael: Not have a job

Nay: My Mom would tell me, "When you have a husband, he's the boss."

Joelle: Would she say that to you?

Nay: Yes. Coming from my Mom, who like, ain't like, she hates men. I dunno why you were tryin' to play me like that. Tell me how you feel, okay?

Michael: DAB!

Nay: But, I remember my Mom being someone, and people in that church group saying that you can't rape your wife. And I remember one day, my Mom telling me that, and I was grown. I was like, she didn't know I was having sex yet, but I was having sex, and she was like, "You know, a husband can't rape his wife." I was like, "Are you telling me, right now, that if I came to you and told you, 'Mom, so-and-so, my husband…'" Ha

(Everyone else laughs)

Nay: "'My husband had sex with me last night and I did not want to have sex with him. He raped me, he really hurt me, blah blah blah.'" I was like, "You wouldn't be mad? You would be like, 'He's allowed to do that'?" And she literally stopped and was like, "Oh." I'm like, "Yeah, Mom, it's not okay! It shouldn't have to be me in those shoes for you to know that, but y'know, better late than never, I guess." But yeah, a lot of people still think this way

Michael: Oh, yeah

Nay: And I think it's so striking to me, because sometimes I wonder what if I had gotten married very young, like so many of my classmates or people that I grew up with. Like at what point would I have broke his and the kids' hearts by having to leave them all for a woman, and I just, I get so grateful that something happened for me where I got to leave all of that behind--

Michael: One hundred percent

Nay: And have the kind of life that I wanna have, but especially-- and maybe I wouldn't have ended up with a horrible man, but like in my mind they're all horrible and I would've ended up with one of them--

Joelle: Watching these movies

Nay: And I would've had to do what he said. I just can't even fathom

Michael: Well, who knows what kind of environment you would have created for yourself…

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Staying in; like I think about that all the time, if I had just stayed in the closet in Ohio..

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Would I be married and have children right now? And hate every single person?

Nay: Yeah

Kara: Yikes

Michael: You know what I mean?

Kara: Yeah

Michael: Just the thoughts of that; and I love my Mother, but when I'm home I hear her say stuff like, "You shouldn't be working anyway." She'll say that to one of my sisters--

Kara: "You shouldn't be working?"

Michael: Yeah, like, "You should be home, with the kids." Or, "He needs to-- none of you should be working. She doesn't have a job? That's great. You shouldn't be working anyway." And it's like, "I think she wants to," y'know?

Nay: I wish my Mom would say that. She's like, "You better get your ass a job!" (laughs) "Right now! Get another one!"

Michael: And she has a little resentment since my Dad died, because before my Dad died, only two of my sisters worked. Two were stay-at-home moms. And now, all four of them are working and she kind of resents the two, especially the one who--

Kara: Does she resent them because it's something she would have liked to have done?

Michael: I think she, with my Dad passing away, and my two sisters who she used to spend a lot of time with during the day are now working, she doesn't have my Dad or them. So she resents that they work, so she'll take like--

Nay: Oooh, she lonely

Michael: She's lonely

Nay: Yeah

Michael: She'll never hear this, so. But she really takes it out on my sister, she's not the nicest to my sister sometimes and I think it comes from the loneliness and also, "You shouldn't be working," is what she'll say to her and it's like, "I need to work."

Joelle: I love that this movie sort of acts as a landmark of where we were, and I feel like it would be challenging to gaslight a modern woman in this way, you know what I mean?

Kara: I think so from where we are, but I wonder--

Joelle: Not impossible!

Kara: Yeah

Joelle: Not Impossible, but if you have, if you're one of the lucky people who has immediate access to the internet, you can be-- with WebMD, forget about the doctor. Like, "WebMD says I should not be feeling pain like this! I don't… this is wrong. I'm gonna Yelp this doctor. Terrible Yelp reviews."

Michael: "Ahhh, so severe pain is not part of the first four months of pregnancy."

Nay: Okay?

Joelle: Right. Get out

Nay: Get Rosemary a smartphone, please

Joelle: So, so many other options

Michael: Get her another rotary (phone) so she can at least call people up that aren't in the other room

Brennan: If I can speak to the medical establishment part of it really quick, like, the thing that really struck me the most about watching it this time was about all of that. Was about her diminishing her pain, was about people not believing her pain. Like literally her friends see that she's a fucking toothpick, she's gaunt and pale like she saw a ghost

Joelle: I know. Circles under her eyes

Brennan: Yeah

Joelle: Eating raw meat

Brennan: Yeah, she actually says, "Oh, it's nothing serious. Oh, it's gonna pass."

Kara: That's normal

Michael: Yeah, liver? Like eating raw liver?

Brennan: Oh, delicious! It's like a delicacy

Michael: So hutch--

Brennan: Sorry sir, I'm putting a pin in that real quick

Michael: Oh, okay

Brennan: No, I wanna say that actually mirrors a lot of my current experience 'cause I actually… last week I talked when I was with you (Nay) and Ayesha?

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: I talked about how I have a photosensitivity, it leads to a lot of extreme headaches and stress, for me. Every doctor that I have been to has not trusted my input on how it feels. They're like, "Oh, you have a photosensitivity? Well, we'll test that. Let's shine a light in your eyes." I'm like,  "Oh, that's… please don't." They're like, "We're gonna…" I mean, some of them are actual tests, like, "We're gonna strap your brain to this thing and put you in a room with a strobe light and see what happens," and, "Okay, fine. We'll do this 'cause I wanna know." But beyond the initial testing, it's been like, "Oh, you know, just kind of deal with it. Use eyedrops, drink some water." And I'm like, "Uh, this is an actual problem I'm having."

Michael: Yeah

Joelle: "Listen. Do you know what it costs to come here?!? I wouldn't be here if I wasn't serious. Fix it."

Brennan: Yeah!

Joelle: To your point, I have great, great advice. If you're at a doctor's office, they're not believing you, they're trying to send you home, just be like, "Can you document that you're refusing to test me further?"

Brennan: That's smart

Michael: Really smart

Joelle: Make them document it so that if you-- most of them do not want to be sued or found liable will just give you the effing test

Nay: That's a great point

Joelle: You've seen both men, both male and female doctors?

Michael: That's a really good point

Brennan: Yes I have, actually

Joelle: And they've both….?

Brennan: I've seen neurologists and opthamologists and everything

Joelle: Try a nurse practitioner and her recommendation

Brennan: Okay

Joelle: Nurses listen. They hear you

Kara: No, they sit around playing cards

Joelle: Listen, I say a nurse saved my life. I rock so hard for nurses!

Brennan: Yeah

Nay: I feel that

Michael: I definitely feel, I've had a, I've had instances with doctors as a man, I can only imagine what women go through

Brennan: Oh, and I don't mean to say I'm comparing myself to Rosemary in any way

Joelle: No no no! Something's happening to you!

Michael: But I've always had better experiences with female doctors than with  male

Brennan: Oh, absolutely

Joelle: I have not seen a difference

Michael: Oh, really?

Joelle: Truly!

Kara: I have

Joelle: I told my female doctor when I was seventeen, "Something is wrong with me, I just wanna sleep all the time. I feel exhausted." She's like, "Oh, try losing weight."

Kara: Yeah

Joelle: I've been fat my entire existence, so when I tell you something has changed… I was depressed, and you could checkmark all the marks of depression and she was just like, "No, go home," and she put me on birth control and I was like, "This thing is making me crazy!" "That's not possible." Ten years later, "Yeah, it makes you feel like you're nuts!"

Brennan: Oh God

Michael: Ooof

Joelle: "And it makes you feel more depressed." I've been so many times to so many doctors to be like, "This is a problem with me," and they either send you home, they don't believe that you're in the amount of pain that you say you are, or it's just like, "Oh, if you just lost weight it would be fine." No.

Nay: "Sir, I have a cold. Okay?"

Joelle: There was just a report on a woman who had stage-four cancer. She was big, and nobody would test her for anything beyond it

Brennan: Oh God

Joelle: They were like, "Oh no. It's just your health. Try some cardio." I can't cardio away cancer, bitch! What are we doing?

Michael: Yeah, this tumor's not gonna go away on a treadmill

Joelle: Ridiculous!

Michael: Yeah. I read a lot of studies about women, particularly when it came to cancer

Joelle: Mmm-hmm

Michael: It being caught late because doctors for years or months at a time were like, "Put a Band-aid on it," essentially

Joelle: You have to be so damn aggressive

Michael: Just so shitty

Joelle: And I feel like Rosemary's Baby is one of the few films you can turn to if you're feeling frustration with doctors

Nay: Right

Joelle: And be like, "See? See the issues here?"

Michael: But I don't want to be Rosemary!

Joelle: Right, no

Michael: "Can you just check and see if I have a devil in there?"

Joelle: "Maybe just use ultrasound. I don't know when ultrasounds were invented, but I just wanna look at the baby."

Kara: Well, you know, she gives birth in that apartment--

Joelle: Oh, golly!

Kara: And they say like, "Your baby is dead."

Michael: "...is dead," yeah

Kara: I'm like, "Take me to the fucking hospital! Hello!

Michael: Right

Brennan: But it's so hard to be an advocate for yourself, in terms of advocating when you're in pain

Michael: Yeah!

Joelle: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: And that's why, again, I connected with Rosemary. There are a lot of things that I need to deal with in my life and my eyes, like, "Oh, there's a lamp behind you. Can we switch sides of the table?" Or whatever. And I used to be really afraid to ask for that

Kara: Yeah. Me too

Brennan: And I really, really related to Rosemary being like, "Oh, it'll pass in a day or two. I'll just deal with it."

Joelle: "I'm too tough."

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: "I've dealt with it before, let's just do it." And…

Michael: People are so afraid of making waves. And I know I'm guilty of, I've been guilty of that in the past year too, I've really made a conscious choice of asking for what I want

Brennan: That's so important

Michael: Because there's nothing wrong with that. My friend Janine said that to me one day. I was complaining about my agent at the time, and how he's doing nothing and I don't feel this, I don't get this, I don't get that, and she goes, "Just fucking tell him! Ask for what you want, man!" And I was just like, "Oh my God, the best advice I've ever gotten was literally like two sentences."

Brennan: It's a superpower

Michael: And it's like, and I did, and things worked out and I sold a TV show and all this amazing stuff happened as a result of me being like, "I just don't wanna work with you anymore Mister Agent," you know what I mean? And it's just like, "Why didn't I do that six years ago when I wanted to?"

Nay: You just don't til you do

Michael: Yeah

Nay: I don't… yeah

Michael: It's tough.

Nay: It is really hard

Michael: We're taught, at least I was and I bet you were too, with your Christian background--

Nay: Yeah

Michael: To like, "Yes. No. Nod. Be polite."

Nay: Yeah

Michael: "Don't make waves, don't cause a scene."

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Michael: And you just… asking for what you want seems like it's gonna connect to those things, and it usually never does

Nay: Yeah. Yeah. And I think especially for folks whose bodies are pathologized and who are undervalued in general, it's like, first of all, you have to educate everyone how to treat you, or how you wanna be treated

Michael: That's exhausting

Nay: And of course that's exhausting. But also, sometimes I know in my life, similar to what Brennan was talking about, and then you (Michael), looking for the accommodations that you need can be really scary...

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Nay: If you think that you're bad for needing those

Michael: Oh yeah

Nay: And I remember any kind of accommodation that I needed because I had a larger body, I used to be so embarrassed to ask for. Because I thought my body was bad and I had to wait til I got to the point where I was like, "There is literally nothing wrong with my body. Certainly none of it is any of your business. But what is your business is that you need to provide me with a chair that my body fits in."

Michael: Right

Nay: "I don't have to feel bad because I am outside of these lines that you've created." It's like, for years, I have tried to change my body. It didn't change. (chuckles) This is who I am, and so, "I need this kind of chair." "Oh, that's unacceptable that you threw this party and you didn't tell anyone there was a flight of stairs." These things are unacceptable, and even if I hated my body for the things that it makes me need, this is still unacceptable.

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Nay: And having the courage to ask for that stuff is so, so hard

Michael: It is! And that's why Rosemary's Baby is such a… it's an anything film, really. Rosemary stands in for women, she stands in for queer people. I mean, Hutch, gay, right?

Nay: Yeah

Michael: He's gay. But I identify with Rosemary in so many ways because as a queer child, you hide, you keep your mouth shut

Kara: You capitulate to somebody and it's--

Michael: Yeah, I mean you're pretending a lot

Kara: Just as a woman, too, it's, "Yes, I'll eat the chocolate mousse that's poisoned, so I'll be raped." She knows there's something wrong with it, but she eats it anyway

Nay: (as Rosemary) "Mmm, it's so good!"

Michael: It's so devastating 'cause it's something so simple as a dessert, and it has such ramifications--

Kara: And she knows, she can taste the poison in it

Michael: Yeah, something's gonna happen

Kara: But she ingests it anyway 'cause her husband is guilting her into it

Joelle: And the way Polanski shoots all of this is thrilling and fascinating. He creates these moments, like when Hutch comes to the apartment for the first time, and he's just talking to her and you see her kind of mustering up all the strength, like, "I'm just gonna get through this conversation." Her husband comes in, she's like, "Oh-kay, we're gonna have to balance these two different personalities because I need to placate both of them, even though Hutch is kind of here for me, he's clearly a guest," and that's kind of important to her, how her guests are treated. So when Hutch gets out, she has to lean against the doorframe for a moment to try to breathe, and then she has to muster it all together until her husband decides to leave. And then she just breaks down on the bed. You also have all these moments of being gaslit where you can't read her husband's face because he's constantly shot from behind. It's not until the end, after she has the baby--

Michael: (softly) Oh, that's a really good point.

Joelle: Where he's squarely in the center, fully facing her and he starts telling her, "It's pretty much the same as if the baby had died, so I don't know why you're so upset!"

Brennan: "Yes, but he didn't actually hurt you."

Kara: Right

Joelle: "He promised you wouldn't be hurt and you weren't." "I was raped and you stood there while like, twelve people watched it happen…"

Kara: Raped by the Devil!

Nay: Okay?

Joelle: "I was hurt! I was violently assaulted!"

Nay: There's levels to this

Michael: Yeah

Joelle: "What are you talking about?!?!" And the best thing, like the most cathartic part of the movie is when she spits in her husband's face

Brennan: Oh yeah

Michael: So great, so great

Joelle: I didn't know she had it in her. I wasn't sure anything was gonna happen, so when he was like, on his knee being like, "And we're gonna have that whole life that you really wanted in California. I made that happen for us!" "Did you? Did I not do all of those, literally all the labor?" This movie also made me think of the line, "We're having a baby." No, bitch, we're not having a baby. Whoever's pregnant is having the baby. That's it, that's one person having the baby.

Michael: I can't get over the thought, Kara you brought it up right away, that all of this  is for fucking Broadway.

Joelle: Well, it's really for the studio gig, if we're gonna be honest. He needs that part--

Michael: To get to Paramount Studios or Universal?

Joelle: Mmm-hmm

Kara: To get to Hollywood

Joelle: Not that that makes it okay

Michael: I can't decide if it's like, genius, because is it in the book? I can't remember. He has the same job in the book?

Kara: Yep

Brennan: Oh yeah

Kara: It's exactly the same

Michael: It's genius, because if you think about it, it's such a statement on white maleness--

Kara: Yes!

Michael: That it's not, and not that there's any gig he could have that he does for a living that makes it any better, but there's something so genius about it being acting

Nay: When you average as hell, also.

Michael: Yeah. When you're not running a charity--

Kara: (amused) "Average as hell"

Nay: Yes

Michael: You're not fucking enjoying a bank, you're not doing something--

Joelle: "I'm not trying to be President or something major, I just wanna be an actor."

Michael: Right. You're fucking trying to be The Music Man?!?!

Joelle: "Not the greatest actor, not the world's best."

Michael: You wanna drive the Wells Fargo wagon? Like, fuck you, dude. And… he's putting his wife through this for a fucking part in a play, you know what I mean? It's like there's something nauseating but also something so genius of Ira Levin to like, choose that profession

Brennan: Oh, yeah

Kara: Yeah

Michael: Literally my note is, "Sure my wife will have the Devil's baby so I can get acting jobs." It's like, Nachos Bell Grande but like the white male privilege version

Brennan: It's like, "Take a Stella Adler class."

Joelle: It also speaks so much to how he values her and where he thinks her value system is at, like, "Your uterus is something I'm willing to barter in exchange."

Michael: "It's mine."

Joelle: Yeah. "It's mine. I see value in it."

Kara: It's the neighbors'!

Joelle: Right. Jesus.

Kara: It's not even his! "It's those next-door neighbors that we just met!"

Michael: We haven't even talked about the girl they killed because, I dunno, was she not compatible?

Kara: Couldn't get pregnant. Who knows?

Michael: Couldn't get pregnant? They didn't have a partner for her?

Kara: Or she found out?

Michael: She found out? Like, they killed somebody!

Kara: They threw her out a window

Joelle: I always saw that as a blood ritual

Michael: Ohhhhhh!

Joelle: The things they got right and the things they got wrong about Wiccan culture was really fascinating to me, and what they chose to use and what they chose not to use. But yeah, I always saw that as a beginning ritual sacrifice

Michael: Interesting

Kara: Oh really, I thought--

Nay: "You talk too much." They're like, "You talk too much. Down in the laundry room, runnin' your mouth."

Joelle: That would be gangster as hell!

Nay: "You're like, 'Look at this three hundred year-old necklace, it smells weird.'"

Michael: And then they saw Rosemary and were like, "She better?"

Kara: Yeah

Nay: Yeah. Maybe. But they were definitely like, "This bitch talks way too much." 'Cause remember how Rosemary's telling them how like, "She has a brother. Oh, he's in the army." And they're like, "Oh, you have so many conversations." And she's like, "No, just the one. Just that one in the laundry room."

Joelle: That lady was brilliant at being nosy and I just feel like, and I know she won the Academy Award--

Michael: Minnie?

Joelle: Yes

Michael: Ruth Gordon's so great in the movie

Joelle: I wonder how many people still value the level of performance that she gave?

Michael: She's so good

Joelle: There's a moment where she tries to steal (Rosemary's) mail when she gets the book shipment--

Brennan: Oh yeah!

Michael: Oh yeah

Joelle: She's like, "Oh, did you open your mail up already?" Which immediately takes on, with her inflections--

Michael: She tries to leave with the book

Kara: She tries to leave with that book

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Joelle: Not only does she try to leave with the book, but the inflection suggests that she has been checking (Rosemary's) mail every day before she has a chance to see it."Oh, you're early today! You got the mail already."

Michael: Yeah

Joelle: Yeah. "Oh, you got my book. I have to take that back now." I'm like, this is brilliant

Michael: And there's this brilliant moment, too, of like, her handling (Rosemary) the tea at the end as a very motherly gesture

Joelle: "It's just Lipton's, boo. Don't worry about it. I'm not poisoning you anymore. Why are you paranoid?"

Michael: Yeah. "It's just tea!" But it's just like, to turn on a dime like that, it's just such a great performance

Michael: You guys wanna know an interesting fact--

Brennan: Always

Michael: About this movie? So. Mia Farrow was married to (Frank) Sinatra when the movie started filming--

Joelle: So gross!

Kara: ''So. Gross''

Michael: Wanna know why they got divorced?

Kara: Is it because of this movie?

Michael: Because she had to do an extra five weeks of shooting, so he left her

Kara: Oh!

Joelle: Sinatra: Classic asshole

Michael: He wanted her to walk off the film and she wouldn't. So body autonomy there, good for her! But also like, "Fuck you!"

Joele: "This is my first role, you bastard!"

Kara: Well, he didn't want her to do the movie

Michael: He didn't want her to do the movie--

Nay: He was lookin' for something. Like, you wanted to leave, you just waited for a reason

Michael: True. Good point.

Nay: Be like something you knew she wouldn't do, like walk off this?

Michael: Imagine putting that in your (divorce) papers? "Wouldn't leave movie set."

Nay: Yeah. Right

Kara: Well this was my favorite of the Satanists, this is Patsy Kelly, who plays Lauralee. I adore her

Brennan: Oh yeah

Kara: She was a… very interesting person

Michael: Out and proud queer person, right?

Kara: Out and proud. She had a longstanding affair with Tallulah Bankhead

Nay: Okay!

Joelle: Tallulah, yes! One of the many great lesbians!

Michael: Joelle, what were you gonna say?

Joelle: For those people who don't know, or who watched the movie but maybe don't know what we're talking about, she is the woman with round glasses who's rocking the baby at the end--

Michael: Plays Minnie's friend, yeah. Knitting.

Joelle: Who really did not want to stop rocking that baby way too hard. That's a newborn!

Kara: She's sort of the personification of the banality of evil. She looks like any, y'know--

Joelle: Schoolteacher?

Kara: Sixty year-old woman that maybe, she lives upstairs in the building I guess

Michael: The twelfth floor, yep

Kara: She sticks her tongue out at Rosemary at the end…

Michael: So Kara was telling me earlier today that Polanski's casting when it came to all the Satanists, he sketched

Kara: He hired them, he wanted to cast them based on physical appearances only. So he did sketches of what he wanted these people to look like and gave them to the casting director

Michael: Isn't that cool? Like he wanted the most average, non-threatening people. 'Cause I was telling Kara, I saw Kara this afternoon and I was talking to her about the movie, and I said that the thing that really struck me this time while watching it was how everyone in the movie had this approachability and in a weird way, almost like a kindness to them, like they were non-threatening looking. She's like the woman with her knitting materials and her big glasses and you kind of like--

Nay: Right, to who?

Michael: "I wanna have a soda with this woman."

Nay: Do you?

Michael: You know there's some underlying thing, but when they become Satanists and she has that same look, scares the complete shit out of you

Joelle: Yeah, when she comes into the apartment the first time, it's very non-threatening

Michael: Yeah, it's very--

Joelle: You don't get a weird hinky feeling off of her

Nay: Right

Michael: It's a bit presumptuous and encroaching

Brennan: Right. But they sit down and start knitting on her couch!

Michael: Yeah. You know there's something with Ruth Gordon, but at the time I was like, "Oh, who's this fun knitter?"

Kara: "This is Ruth's beard."

Nay: I would be so annoyed! Just the way she has to be involved with them, like, oh, all of a sudden there's dinner. All of a sudden there's this?

Michael: Invasion of privacy

Joelle: And she just has to accept it. "I don't want them in my house, but they have to be there."

Nay: Yeah. "You have to leave. I don't know why you're setting up the knitting crew right now. I got things to do."

Joelle: "I'm literally in pain. Just relax."

Michael: I mean, there's gaslighting, there's sexual assault, there's no agency. There's no body autonomy. There's invasion of privacy. There's emotional manipulation. There's like, classism. There's murder, there's suicide. There's so many topics in this movie. I can't think of another movie that's covered this many things, that did it well. And managed to weld them all together into one cohesive story? And it all happens to one person!

Joelle: Can we talk about the elephant in the room? Which, when I mentioned this to someone else, we were both struck by, "How did Roman Polanski make this movie?"

Michael: Right

Joelle: "How did this dude…?"

Michael: I mean, you have to talk about it

Brennan: I think an important aspect of this movie is Ira Levin. I think most of the stuff we're talking about comes from him

Michael: Like Kara said, it's a very faithful adaptation

Kara: Yeah. Unlike The Stepford Wives, which, Ira Levin's book was much more meaningful and much more of a feminist parable than the movie was, although I thought the movie was very successful also, but it wasn't, it didn't follow the point of the book. But this, Rosemary's Baby, it was all there for him. I mean, (Polanski) did an amazing job with the cinematography and the look and everything, but--

Michael: Yeah, Ira had the blueprint for him

Brennan: Yeah, the story and the characters are not Roman Polanski's

Kara: Yeah

Brennan: The images are

Michael: It's a gorgeous movie

Brennan: Yeah, no, it is.

Kara: Yeah. I mean, he understood it

Michael: We've talked about this on the show, though. Like we like taking what you like and leaving the rest

Kara: Yeah

Michael: And I think--

Brennan: There's a lot to leave

Michael: This is probably-- I mean, you watch the movie; I thought about it probably a dozen times while watching the movie, like, "This man directed this movie," y'know? And it's just like, I dunno. It's like a really, it's a deep subject and I think we could spend three hours just talking about that

Joelle: I think it just reveals multitudes and layers, and it's the same kind of way we get shocked or bowled over by like, "Oh, Robin Williams was an alcoholic and y'know, he succeeded in killing himself, but he was a guy that made us laugh so much and brought joy, hours and hours of joy into our lives," and I think that it's intriguing to me as we continue to try to have conversations around, "Can you separate art from artists, where is that line drawn?" The idea that someone was capable of creating those horrors, recreating those horrors in a visual sense, but make us sympathetic to the victim? I think it will always be shocking, but also it's a great reveal of the human condition, maybe.

Kara: Yeah, and you owe it to yourself to be able to enjoy and appreciate a movie like that without him, without his being a piece of shit dragging it down. It is what it is. He's not really relevant to that movie any more, in your experience watching it

Michael: I would never watch anything of his now, like new stuff

Brennan: Oh, yeah

Michael: But there's something, there's just so much tragedy involved with this movie behind the scenes, too. With Sharon Tate being killed by essentially like, what you know, the Christian right, like, "God is dead," was asked on Time (magazine) in 1965 or '66--

Joelle: She's reading it in the movie

Kara: She is, yeah. I always forget about that

Michael: And then how the rise of Satanism in the late Sixties was another Time cover. And I know you mentioned Satanic Panic earlier, and that really hit its peak in the Eighties--

Kara: Yes

Michael: But went through the Seventies and it like, started-- it's weird to think like the biggest event to kind of start Satanic Panic was the Manson murders, which are tied to Polanski with Sharon Tate. It's just like there's so much trauma and tragedy surrounding this movie behind the scenes.

Kara: By real Satanists

Nay: Do you wanna know how I first heard about this movie?

Michael: How?

Joelle: I wanna know!

Michael: From Helter Skelter?

Nay: No. From watching Beautician and the Beast. When her old boyfriend is like, "You know, we did that musical. (sings) So tell me Ro, don't keep me waitin'!"

Brennan: Oh my God!

Nay: (sings) "This embryo is from Satan…"

Joelle: They do a musical version?

Michael: (gasps).Oh my God

Brennan: That's so good!

Kara: That's so good!

Nay: And I was like, "What movie are they talking about?"

Michael: Yeah

Nay: Beautician and the Beast was my movie

Michael: Is that Fran Drescher?

Nay: Yes! Yeah

Michael: Idea. Joelle, you know Clarke Wolfe?

Joelle: Yeah! Love Clarke Wolfe!

Michael: She once described the term "sidequel" to me. Has she ever described that to you before? I feel like we've described it here on the show before

Joelle: I think I have a good idea of what it is

Michael: So, it's not a sequel, it's not a remake, but it's like taking a character--

Joelle: The (indistinct) story?

Michael: Hutch. I wanna see his sidequel

Joelle: Yes

Michael: I wanna see what he's doing while Rosemary's going through all this shit and like getting her clues and information and like, ending with him getting put in a coma, you know what I mean?

Joelle: I love it

Michael: Sidequel

Joelle: Yeah, see the witches come in, that would totally be his climax

Michael: Call it, "The Hutch"

Joelle: Shut. Up. That would be amazing, okay?

Michael: So before we sign off, there's a few quotes I wanted to read, just because I really like them. The first was Jordan Peele compared Get Out to Rosemary's Baby, "Where Get Out is a film about race," he said, "Rosemary's Baby is a film about gender. It's about men making decisions about women's bodies behind their backs," which I think is a really great--

Kara: Did anyone see, I guess it was maybe a couple years ago when he tweeted--

Michael: Yes! Rosemary's Baby in emoji

Kara: Rosemary's Baby in emojis? That was genius

Nay: Wonderful

Michael: Mia Farrow had this to say for the Criterion Collection, "I think it's a great movie and I don't think I've done another. I know I didn't get another role as fine that asked as much of me and I know I've never worked with a director that was as precise with me. It was the happiest work experience, the most fulfilling thing that I've ever had."

Brennan: Wow

Nay: Damn, (indistinct)

Michael: Which I think is pretty great considering she left her man for it

Nay: Hell yeah

Michael: Fuck you, Frank Sinatra

Joelle and Nay: Seriously

Joelle: Forever

Kara: Maybe it was sort of like an awakening for her too, because you know Sinatra was telling her what to do, what to wear, how to do your hair

Brennan: Oh God

Michael: Oh, for sure. She maintained that they were really good friends until he died in '98, but I'm choosing to believe that

Joelle: Mia Farrow has questionable taste in men...

Kara: She certainly does

Michael: Beautiful son, though

Joelle: And it would make sense if she remained friends, but also, uch

Michael: And lastly, I wanted to read this quote from a Vanity Fair article that I read in this year, about Rosemary's Baby through a #MeToo 2018-2019 lens, and this person said, and I'm so mad I didn't write down her name because I want to credit her, but we can look up the article. "Today it isn't devil worship or the invocation of Satan that troubles the viewer. It's that a man barters his wife's body and that her destiny has been ruthlessly appropriated and perverted." Like, sing it

Brennan: That's good shit

Joelle: The author of that is Laura Jacobs

Michael: Thank you!

Joelle: Mmm-hmm. I got you

Michael: Laura, beautiful, that is exactly...

Brennan: Joelle, you're the best

Michael: Non-Shady summary for Rosemary's Baby through a 2019 lens, I think that's pretty spot-on

Joelle: Can I throw up Roger Ebert's little quote about it?

Michael: Yeah!

Joelle: Okay, cool. "The best thing that can be said about this film, I think, is that it works. Polanski has taken a most difficult situation and made it believable right up until the end. In this sense, he even out does Hitchcock. Both Rosemary's Baby and Hitchcock's classic Suspicion are about wives who are deeply in love who are forced to suspect the most sinister and horrible things about their husbands. But Cary Grant in Suspicion was only a bounder and perhaps a murderer, and we didn't even really believe since he was Cary Grant. Rosemary on the other hand is forced into the most bizarre suspicions about her husband and we share them and believe them because Polanski exercises his craft so well, we follow him right up until the end and stand there, rocking that dreadful cradle." If that isn't the damn truth. I'm like, "What is in the cradle?" But also, her want to be a mother from the get-go solidifies that moment so perfectly. Like, it's not what you wanted, but it's what you got. And her--

Michael: The horror on her face

Joelle: And her continued desire to make things work, and the fact that even after all this journey, even after spitting in her husband's face, Rosemary essentially has not changed, she is still going to be the woman everyone expects her to be, is devastating.

Michael: It's the scariest part of the movie

Joelle: Yes! Absolutely. It's ingrained in her

Michael: I mean that look of horror on her face when she sees what's in the bassinet

Brennan: (groans)

Joelle: (chuckles) Golly

Michael: Talk about scaring the shit out of audience with just facial expressions, ohhhh!

Joelle: Did anyone else get a memory of seeing the baby or a part of the baby?

Michael: Yeah!

Brennan: Yeah!

Michael: One hundred percent!

Joelle: It's nuts! I swear I saw a close-up of a hoof or a lock…

Michael: Because of that look on her face, and then the verbal description after? You like literally remember it as seeing the baby

Kara: Right

Joelle: It's so crazy

Michael: It's so brilliant

Kara: Everyone convinced everyone else that there was a shot of the baby--

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Joelle: Nuts

Kara: If you looked carefully enough

Michael: But that wraps up Rosemary's Baby. Otherwise we could go on for like, four more hours

Joelle: Thank you for the suggestion. It was time for a revival

Kara: I wanted to promote an Instagram account that is not my own, I think it's so awesome. It's called, what is it called? "Look at this Russian," I think

Michael: Oh, wow

Kara: And it's sort of like a parody account of what westerners think of Russian, like, post-soviet Russians

Michael: That's really funny

Kara: Like a drunk baby riding a bear in the mud in a farm, but they're real pictures and videos and it is just genius

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