Episode 21: "Sister Wives" (w/ Joelle Monique!)

''This week the Queerwolves are joined by Joelle Monique (The AV Club, Teen Vogue, Pajiba, The Hollywood Reporter, pretty much everywhere) to fill in a major gap, at least according to Mark and one angry reviewer. We’ll be discussing the 1994 Peter Jackson crime-fantasy epic HEAVENLY CREATURES! We talk childhood crushes, Mark plays naked chicken, Nay isn’t allowed to watch Fear Factor, and Michael finds an wrestler he’s actually interested in. Plus, in Tea Time we sip on THE LODGE, POISON IVY, and BRIDGET JONES’S DIARY.''

Trivia
"Tonight we come to you from the Fourth World, where all the best people have bad chests and bone diseases and it's all frightfully romantic." Mark adds Kate Winslet to his list of impressions. Mark introduces Producer Brennan as a "Dielo who always slays his nannies". Michael says that thanks to the movie only being on YouTube for streaming, tonight was the first time he, Nay and Mark watched a movie for the show together.

Topics brought up during the episode: Penn Badgley, Penn Badgley's Twitter response to fans of his character on You, Ted Bundy, Slate article on Ted Bundy (he wasn't hot, he was just a white Republican), Slate author's appearance on AM2DM, Nay's pictures from the Poison Ivy screening, Nay's dog Kennedy (getting up on the table?), friends of the show BJ Colangelo and Ryan Larson, the R. Kelly documentary, Dead Alive (aka Braindead), Meet the Feebles, the true story behind Heavenly Creatures, two star review left for the show because Michael and Nay hadn't seen Heavenly Creatures before,

Tea Time
Joelle: Just finished binging You season one, first two episodes of the Netflix Ted Bundy documentary

Nay: Also finished binging You season one, Poison Ivy with Mark at the New Beverly

Mark: Poison Ivy with Nay at the New Beverly, early cut of The Lodge, could not stop reading reviews of Leaving Neverland

Michael: Couldn't get through the first episode of the Netflix Ted Bundy documentary, did another athlete deep dive on WWE/NXT Superstar Finn Balor

Brennan: Bridget Jones's Diary

Shady Summaries
Michael: I don't have one, 'coz I didn't prepare one because I think the movie is perfect

Mark: (disappointed) Lazy

Joelle: Two hormonal, fragile on-the-edge girls decide to kill their mother because they might have to live apart for three years

Michael: This is what happens when you don't let people live

Joelle: Honestly. You get smashed down every time. "I have a creative endeavor!" "No!" "I like this person!" "No!" "I wanna go out!" "Stay inside until you're happier!" None of the parents' rules make sense at any point in this film. It's so dumb

Mark: Yeah, there's a lot of parental oppression in this movie

Nay: You know what, when you were like, "Shady Summary," I was like, oh shit. I literally forgot to do that.

Michael: Because you liked it so much

Nay: And then Michael looked at me and I was like, "No, not me!" Yeah, so cool story

Michael: And then Mark scolded me

Nay: Yeah

Mark: And then I scolded you. Now I'm gonna scold you. (beat) No

Nay: I will be unfazed

Mark: Well, you know what everyone's punishment is? Everyone's punishment is they have to listen to mine

Nay: Yes!!

Michael: Is it going to be another like, sonnet of singing?

Mark: Well, what happens when I have to do a Shady Summary for a movie that I love, I don't, I can't be bitchy about it so I just have to make a gag out of it

Joelle: Why can't you be bitchy about it?

Mark: I don't know. I just don't find it. It's just not me

Joelle: Okay, okay

Mark: (to the tune of "Eleanor Rigby")

Heavenly Creatures, it's not on iTunes or Netflix or Hulu or Prime

Lesbian crime

Mark's Game
Mark: Okay, True or False. (to Joelle) I feel like you know everything about this movie, so…

Michael: Ooooh

Nay: Mark made us not look things up, by the way

Michael: And I actually stuck to that today

Nay: Me too!

Mark: Okay. Thank you

Nay: I listened to Daddy

Mark: All right

Michael: Daddy said, so we did

Mark: I'm so old. I'm so old.

Mark: True or False: Was there a Simpsons episode based on this movie?

Nay: True

Michael: True

Mark: The answer is True. Episode 429, "Lisa the Drama Queen". Emily Blunt played Juliet and they created a world called "Equalia", a world where everyone is equal

Joelle: (tearfully) So beautiful

Nay: I wasn't allowed to watch The Simpsons, but I plan on catching up on all forty-five seasons as soon as I can

Joelle: You mean you didn't [https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Every._Simpsons._Ever. binge when it came out on FX]? [EN: FXX] I love a good binge!

Nay: Oh, I love a binge

Joelle: They were like, "Six weeks of just The Simpsons!" I was like, "Count me in!"

Michael: Do you mean season four, episode twenty-nine or episode 429? Because aren't there like six hundred episodes?

Joelle: There are

Michael: Mark?

Mark: I'm sorry?

Michael: You said, "Episode 429". Does that mean season four, episode twenty-nine or is it the four…

Mark: (exasperated) I don't know. I have no idea

Michael: I was just curious to know how early in the run they did it

Joelle: It's gotta be the four hundredth twenty-ninth episode…

Michael: Yeah, because season four would have been in 1991 or 92

Mark: It was way in there, it was in there

Joelle: The Simpsons started in 1989, so yeah, we would've been '91 or '92

Michael: Yeah, it would've been before that

Brennan: And I don't think Emily Blunt was, like a thing

Michael: Oh yeah, I forgot about that

Joelle: Oh yeah, that's also fair. I forgot about that. Okay, we're here, we're back together

Mark: True or False: Juliet grew up to be a famous romance writer

Michael: True

Nay: True

Mark: False!

Joelle: That was a trick question, though!

Michael: She grew up to be a writer, right?

Mark: Her name, she changed it...

Michael: Crime novels!

Mark: Yes.

Joelle: Ding!

Michael: I knew that

Mark: She changed her name to Anne Perry and she is a bestselling mystery author with over seventy books

Nay: Oh my God! Yeah

Joelle: Listen everybody, there are interviews with her and they are frickin' creepy. Mike and I were watching one before the show and we were like, "What?" 'Cause she seems like a full normal person, and she's very much processed and dealt with the fact that she participated in a murder, and talks about it with the calmest, coolest, collected like, "This is what happened, and this is how I've grown since then. And yeah I should have been in prison."

Michael: What year…?

Nay: Jesus. That's how she feels

Michael: Nevermind. I was gonna ask what year it was. It's fifty-four. Have any of her novels been turned into movies?

Joelle: I don't know that question

Mark: I mean possibly TV, but I don't know

Joelle: I'm not sure

Mark: We'd have to look that up

Brennan: I will do that

Mark: (faux chipper) Thanks, Brennan!

Michael: True or False: The novels have been tuned into movies

Joelle: Just hijack this game, start…

Mark: Heavenly Creatures is one of three films based on the Parker-Hume murder case.

Michael: I'm gonna say true

Nay: False

Mark: The answer is false

Michael: (gasps)

Mark: There are only two films based on the Parker-Hume murder case. Don't Deliver Us From Evil

Michael: That's the one I have! Yeah.

Mark: Yeah, okay. Or as the French call it, Mais ne nous délivrez pas du mal

Michael: (whispering) Say it again

Mark: Mais ne nous délivrez pas du mal

Michael: Yeah, Daddy

Mark: (groans) Oui...

Joelle: It's getting steamy in here, my God!

Mark: It is actually really warm in here. It's hot as balls in here

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Yeah

Mark: It is a 1971 French horror film that was rated "X" for I don't know what, maybe sex?

Michael: Maybe?

Mark: I don't know. I feel like anything back in the day, they'd be like, (deep voice) "X", (normal voice) just to like, and they'd be like, "Yeah!"

Joelle: But you could still sell X-rated movies, right? It wasn't like...

Michael: I had to buy it on (unintelligible)...

Mark: It's like nothing

Michael: My friend Kara recommended that movie, 'cause she knows this case, like the real-life case and she's like, "You need to watch this movie." I can't even remember the name of the site I found a DVD copy of it on

Mark: Yeah…

Michael: I mean, we're gonna do it for the show, I think

Mark: Absolutely. We absolutely should

Michael: Yeah

Mark: And Joelle, you should come back for that one

Joelle: I'm about it!

Michael: You absolutely should, yeah

Joelle: 'Cause I've never seen this movie

Michael: The DVD cover is ridiculous

Mark: Oh my God, yeah. It's really something

Michael: Like lingerie…

Joelle: Oh! Is it like Tripping the Velvet 's cover? I don't know if you guys...

Mark: Kind of

Joelle: Yes!

Mark: It's got that flavour

Joelle: I love it. I'm so gay!

Nay: "Should Joelle and I remake the cover of the DVD," is that what I'm hearing?

Mark: Yeah

Michael: Oooh, yes!

Joelle: I love it! I love it!

Mark: Please do, please do

Michael: Get you silk…

Joelle: What do I have on now?

Michael: Just drape silk over the both of you

Mark: Hie thee to Instagram now. Do it.

Brennan: Real quick. Anne Perry's novel The Cater Street Hangman was made into a TV-movie in 1998

Mark: Wow

Joelle: Good for her! Make that money

Michael: Here or in the UK?

Brennan: In the UK, and it was directed by a woman, hooray

Joelle: Yes!

Mark: "And she killed her after…" I'm kidding. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Nay: Half a brick

Mark: She's grown up to be…

Michael: (fey voice) Not to be anyone brick killy

Mark: It sounds like she turned her life around and thank goodness, you know? Very good, right? Redemption.

Mark: Speaking of the real case, I have forever wanted to read Pauline's actual diary. 'Coz like they took so much from…

Nay: Oh hell yeah

Michael: Oh, good idea

Mark: So many chunks of the movie are based on, they're from her actual diary. I'm like, "Okay, so that means it's published? Or how?" I wanna read it

Joelle: My guess is that they went and got the court documents and just got scanned pieces of it, is my guess

Mark: I guess they did

Joelle: Although in Ebert's review he does say they took a ton of liberties in the writing, so I wonder how much is actually from the diary and how much they were like making it flourish and polish

Michael: Connect-the-dots

Joelle: 'Coz the way in which she spoke, the very dramatic thirteen-year-old whose knowledge supersedes her age was believable, but sometimes I was like, "Well, maybe someone older did write that." I dunno

Mark: Listeners, if any of you have an inside line on how to get ahold of these things…

Nay: Seriously

Mark: Please, please, please

Joelle: If you wanna just send me a PDF document, that would be the peak. But if you just have a link or whatever, that will do

Mark: Hit us up on Twitter or Instagram, thank you, we would be so happy

Joelle: Just ship it to me, I'll give you my address

Mark: One final question. The girls, meaning Winslet and Lynskey, were so absorbed by their roles during shooting that they kept on acting as Pauline and Juliet after filming had wrapped. True or False?

Nay: Oh that's true

Michael: True

Nay: That's gotta be true. They're fuckin' nuts

Mark: True

Nay: Yeah, yeah

Mark: No, listen…

Michael: Kate Winslet did her 'til Titanic

Mark: Kate Winslet goes whole hog in the, I mean like literally, she, when she makes her other entrance at her house in that fairy princess outfit on the bridge and she's twirling around?

Joelle: Yes!

Mark: I was like, "She's channeling some Miss Piggy shit."

Joelle: Yes!!!

Mark: She is feeling some kind of Miss Piggy fantasy...

Michael: Oh hell yeah

Mark: And she's just, (as Miss Piggy) "Ahhh, Kermie!" (normal voice) And she's like, crazy! And you know… she has no shame, all abandon. God I love Kate Winslet

Nay: Dykes love Miss Piggy

Joelle: How could you not?

Nay: Well, true

Mark: What's not to love?

Michael: Gay boys like Miss Piggy, too

Joelle: How could you not? Crossed eyes and loud and in charge. She was once the editor of Vogue. Like, I stan Miss Piggy

Nay: Oh my God, I'm like two of three of those things

Mark: I love her so much

Joelle: If you were blonde, yes. You just need a set of pearls and you're on your way

Michael: And fuck a frog

Nay: Little twink. That's a little twink. I've already fucked a Kermit, I already have

Mark: Okay, I think we have to go out. So, kids, if you're listening, find your Kermit

Joelle: Yes!

Mark: Find your Kermit and fuck him, so you know once and for all…

Joelle: That you're really a lesbian

Mark: Whether or not, where you fall on the Kinsey scale

(Someone laughs so hard they snort)

Nay: That was Michael, that snort

Mark: Literally a snort

Michael: I'm just thinking about the scrawl on the episode saying, the title being, "Find Your Kermit and Fuck Him".

Pride Float
Mark: I love everything about Heavenly Creatures. I don't know about you guys, but does it deserve a Pride Float?

Joelle: God, yes!

Michael: Right?

Joelle: Specifically for the children. And also, okay, hold on. Such a small tiny rant. I went to Pride last year here for the first time, it was the biggest disappointment of my entire existence

Nay: I'm sorry

Joelle: Chicago Pride...

Nay: Poppin'

Joelle: The best!

Nay: Bomb

Joelle: The best fucking days ever! It's free. You could just go in. Everything is accessible. It's really cool. The floats are actually gay folks instead of a bunch of straight people pandering to a bunch of other straight people in the street

Michael: Oh, wow

Joelle: The worst time of my life…

Nay: Light it the fuck up, bitch!

Joelle: Bring the…

Michael: Savage! Go savage!

Joelle: Bring an amazing Heavenly Creatures float so the young lesbian girls are just like, "Yes!" It would be like a whole library and girls twirling in long dresses, and then I would just put some dykes up there, just because we need some flavor. Just season it up with a whole array of lesbians, but also good books, and that would be my Heavenly Creatures float

Nay: Handing out journals to the crowd

Joelle: Oh yes!!!

Michael: Standing on a bloody brick, too

Joelle: And fountain pens! I love it! It would be done. It's sold. Yes

Mark: I agree

Nay: Yeah, I'm done giving a float

Michael: A lot of scones and shit.

Joelle: Oh!!

Michael: They ate a lot of bread in the movie, which I'm all about

Mark: That's true. A lot of buttered stuff

Joelle: Real women

Nay: That won't go over at L.A. Pride, but...

Joelle: No, that body's gotta stay tight!

Michael: We ate a lot of bread and butter last night

Mark: We sure did

Nay: Oh, we did

Mark: We really went  through, we tore through...

Nay: That was bomb. Okay, first of all, y'all, Michael pulled out this baguette and he was like, "Look at this big dong of bread I have."

Joelle: Oh. My. God.

Mark: We were like, "You mean a baguette?" And he was like, "Uh, yeah."

Michael: (fey voice) "Oh, is that what it's called? It said 'Dong' on the bag in Ralphs."

Mark: Bread dong

Quotes
Mark: Thanks for picking a good movie. Jesus Christ

Joelle: Yeah. I don't rewatch bad movies, there's rarely a point

Michael: You're really, you're really helping us out

Mark: No. I mean really. You did us a solid

Michael: After Listener Request Month….

Nay: Okay

Mark: I mean, I was just like I'm gonna look up this nice woman for doing this to us. Thank you. I was like, I liked you even before I met you. Thank you

Joelle: My pleasure

Mark: With us as always, lest we forget, is our intrepid producer and Dielo who slays his nannies, Brennan

Brennan: Thank you so much. I feel so seen and honored. And I do look exactly like Orson Welles.

Mark: You really do. It's impossible to deny the resemblance

Michael: I thought you were going to introduce Kennedy the dog

Nay: (sings) Kennedy!

Mark: Well, the dog is…

Brennan: Look, he gets more airtime than me

Nay: Not possible

Mark: He gets a lot of Instagram love, I have to say

Nay: He does

Michael: How could you not?

Joelle: Penn Badgley's Twitter during rewatching You where he was telling girls, "Please don't fall in love with serial killers and stalkers. It's not healthy."

Nay: Something you gotta say, apparently

Joelle: They were like, "We will sacrifice ourselves to be with you." Which, I mean…

Michael: They're repeating it this week with Ted Bundy

Mark: Exactly

Joelle: Ugh! So creepy!

Nay: Also, I just wanna make sure everyone can tell the difference between these two Black girl voices, 'cause I know you've never heard two at once on this show, so. Don't play us

Michael: Oh my God

Mark: (as a basic white girl) Oh my God! I don't understand!

Joelle: (as a basic white girl) They sound exactly the same

Mark: (as a basic white girl) Michael, what's happening?

Nay: What's always most uncomfortable for me in a movie theater is usually the crowd, because I just can't deal when men laugh at certain things that aren't funny. I'll be like, "That's not funny. Now that's not funny either now. Ew, no. That's not funny." So, there was a little bit of that (at the Poison Ivy screening)

Michael: Was there a lot?

Nay: Well, in a theater full of men, yeah

Mark: I mean, look. The New Beverly is, and we love the New Beverly, we love it, but you know, it's very white, very male, very straight, and but, I will say, we had a conversation about this where I remember going years ago and seeing certain vaguely homophobic things happen in a movie that was going on, and the audience was laughing in a way that I was like, "Are we all in on the same joke? Are we all laughing for the same reason? I don't know." And lately, I've found that it's much more of a laugh where I go, "Oh. They get it." So, y'know, there's, I think there's room for growth and room for change. But yeah, I completely understand why you would feel that way

Joelle: It's frustrating. I did a triple feature of Unbreakable, Split and Glass. And you know, during Split, when (James) McAvoy is portraying a woman, there are a lot of "tee-hees" and I was just like...

Nay: No

Joelle: He's so dedicated to this role and being a woman in this moment. There's nothing funny about anything that he's doing

Mark: Yeah. There's nothing camp about it

Joelle: It was very weird

Mark: He's really great

Joelle: He's so good. And he's hot! He got all like, thick and amazing

Michael: What happened?

Joelle: I don't know where they find these trainers to make these guys go from like, fours to tens, but it's a beautiful gift to all of us

Nay: Wow

Joelle: Worship it. Thank you!

Mark: Wowsers

Joelle: Michael B. Jordan between films? Lord! So good!

Michael: All of them

Mark: He's gonna be back as Killmonger

Joelle: I… don't… like it! He died! He had the best death line in the history of cinema, and they're like, "He's coming back!" And I'm like, "As a ghost? I don't want him to be alive." I'm sure Wakanda was like, "We're just gonna fix you," but...

Mark: Listen. Ordinarily, ordinarily I'd be like, that's rude. He died and that's not okay

Joelle: But if we get another shirtless scene out of it

Michael: Absolutely

Mark: That chest is ribbed for your pleasure

Joelle: I hated Aquaman but I'm looking forward to part two

Mark: I am willing to overlook narrative discrepancies this one time

Joelle: Yes! Totally!

Michael: Yes. There's no narrative discrepancy with Michael B. Jordan. It all makes sense

Mark: It's fine. It's fine. Anyone who says anything about it, I'm gonna be like, "Shhhh, it's Michael B. Jordan."

Michael: (whispering) "Stop, stop."

Michael: Okay. I can't stop looking at pictures of (Finn Balor)

Mark: We're thirsty tonight!

Joelle: Start with the glutes, let's go!

Michael: I mean, all of him. The reason I wanted to bring him up is because the WWE, again, may be like the New Bev of old: Very white, very straight, probably leans right. He is the first wrestler in the history of WWE to have an LGBTQ line in his apparel that is done through the WWE. So I thought that was actually really cool. I was like, deep diving just on pictures of him, and I was posting them on Twitter and BJ messaged me a picture of him in his shirt, which is his logo in a rainbow and the line is called "For Everyone". I immediately ordered the shirt. I was hoping to have it here tonight to wear

Brennan: You know he didn't wear it first before he sold it, right?

Michael: What?

Brennan: Nevermind

Michael: Oh, I know. I already bought a bottle of his sweat. No, he doesn't sell that. I looked. So yeah, I did a deep dive into him, and he's like one of the first in the WWE to actually really use his platform in a queer way. Even though he is a straight ally, he's using his platform in a queer way. And I was watching video clips of him today, talking about what his goals were as a wrestler. He said he doesn't really care for titles, but he wound up being the Universal champ, and as soon as he won that, the first thing he did was start pitching this line to the WWE.

Joelle: That's dope

Michael: "I wanna do this. I wanna do this." And it took like, two years for it to happen. He said it kept getting turned down, and then Stephanie McMahon caught wind of it and she, I guess was essentially like, with him, went in and was like, "You guys don't have a choice. You're doing this."

Joelle: Oh snap!

Michael: So then last year at Summerslam [EN: Wrestlemania 34], he brought a bunch of queer people in New Orleans, part of I think it was the New Orleans LGBT Center. I don't know if they were employees, but he brought like thirty-five queer people as his entrance

Joelle: Oh, dude!

Mark: Wow

Michael: So that was my little deep dive. It went from having a crush on this guy to having like, a really big crush on this guy. But for more than physical reasons. So give 'im a look-up

Mark: (The Lodge) was directed by Severin Fiala and Veronika Franz of Goodnight Mommy. They directed that, terrifying movie. And I got to see The Lodge a couple months ago and it scared the living shit out of me. People are comparing it to Hereditary, I enjoy Hereditary, I love The Lodge. Because it's just old sch-- it's just very teutonic, tough heavy family horror

Michael: Gimme

Mark: Yeah. It is really fucking scary in a way that sneaks up on you. Riley Keough is so brilliant in this movie. I don't really, it's definitely one of those movies where if you don't know much about it, the better. And yeah, all I can say about it is that if you have an opportunity to see this movie early, now, whenever, oh my God, go. Go to a preview, just anything.

Mark: Brennan, to lighten the mood before we talk about our main event, I would like you to discuss one layer on a movie

Brennan: I actually, I slacked this week, I've been a little busy. I wanna take the temperature of the room before I tell you what I watched. I'm gonna tell you three words and I just wanna know your instant reaction to them. And those words are: Bridget Jones's Diary

Joelle: Yes

Nay: Uch

Brennan: Okay, Nay

Nay: I'm sorry, I thought of Renee Zellweger and so that's why I made that noise

Joelle: Why does her name get you up?

Nay: We can get into that. She's just annoying as fuck to me

Joelle: Oh! That adorable, don't you just wanna pinch her cheeks? Oh my God!

Nay: No. I want her to shut the fuck up

Joelle: No!

Nay: Which, I realize, fuck me. Who cares. It doesn't matter that this person's voice annoys me. I usually feel bad for disliking someone's voice, because it's not something they can control, but I often dislike people's voices and cannot spend time with them because they, it just grates at my nerves

Michael: (laughing and hitting the table) Can't spend time with them

Nay: And I'll be like, "Mmm-mm. No." I'm sorry, that's my reaction

Brennan: No, that's…

Mark: Anyway, go on, Brennan

Brennan: The feeling in the room is mixed, but I hated Bridget Jones's Diary

Nay: Nice!

Joelle: (groan of disappointment)

Brennan: Has anyone watched it in the past five years?

Nay: No

Joelle: I have

Nay: Clearly

Joelle: I watched it last in 2018, yeah

Brennan: This is another one of those early 2000s Hugh Grant movies where he plays somebody's boss who then you know, falls in love at work

Joelle: It's definitely sexual assault at work

Brennan: It's very gross, very creepy and that's not the only reason that I didn't like this movie. Obviously I understand that it's a very iconic movie…

Michael: Is it?

Brennan: And people enjoy it. For certain people. I dunno.

Joelle: Listen. Straight ladies with their wine are always gonna be really into Bridget Jones

Michael: With their frosé

Joelle: Yes! And as a lady, sometimes I can just jump over faulty things. Just hop right over the problematic situations

Brennan: But there's so many!

Joelle: There are a ton. She's got an eating disorder…

Brennan: Bridget Jones's mom's casual racism about the Japanese

Joelle: Oh, I forgot about that!

Brennan: Bridget Jones is running around tossing semi-slur homophobic terms about her gay friends

Joelle: It's gonna age about as well as Breakfast at Tiffany's

Brennan: Yeah. But also…

Joelle: Still enjoy it

Brennan: The entire soundtrack of this movie is literally, if you're thinking of a mood, literally the first song you think of is what they chose. So we get "All By Myself", we get "Respect" by Aretha Franklin. We get two instances of "Ain't No Mountain High Enough". And literally, there's a scene with Bridget Jones's mom to the tune of "Me and Mrs. Jones." It's the most literal, it's the Suicide Squad of rom-coms in terms of soundtrack

Joelle: But she runs out in her underwear and they kiss in the snow and it's so romantic! (beat) I'm kidding

Brennan: Is it?

Joelle: Not really

Brennan: But straight people aren't romantic to me

Joelle: Listen, it's like…

Mark: You're like, "I know I'm wrong, but…!"

Joelle: I do, I do! But it's like Friends. Friends is like, oh God...

Michael: I started watching that this week. I should've talked about that

Joelle: It's like an Ambien. It's perfect

Mark: What?!

Michael: I loved that show when it was on, and now I'm like, "What the fuck was I watching?"

Joelle: It's so anti-gay!

Michael: It's so homophobic, there's so much sissy panic

Joelle: Literally every episode

Michael: Ross is a gaslighter from episode one until the finale

Brennan: Oh yeah

Joelle: He was the worst!

Mark: I was watching Friends, I never watched consistently when it was on…

Michael: Ugh. He's such a whiny asshole

Mark: I was babysitting my nephew for an hour and so I just plunked it on while we were playing a game. He loves to do this thing where he sits on the bed and he loves to be shoved over and then sits up again and shoved and sits up again…

Michael: So cute. He walks over to the TV and shoves it over

Mark: He just loves to be pushed and stand up again. Anyway, we watched Friends and I was like, "This is fine. This is wallpaper. Whatever."

Joelle: It is!

Mark: Listen. Lisa Kudrow, forever a genius

Michael: Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant

Mark: And it was an episode where, was it Ross's son?

Michael: Yes

Mark: Ben has a Barbie and…

Brennan: Oh yeah, oh no

Joelle: Yep

Mark: He spends the entire episode trying to talk him out of--

Michael: Him out of having a Barbie

Mark: Playing with a Barbie and I was just like, (snorts) "Oy." I dunno. I half watched it

Michael: Does anybody in that episode chill out Ross?

Joelle: Yeah, the lesbian moms were like, "It's not a big deal. He asked for this Barbie."

Michael: Were Monica and Rachel like, "Chill out"? Monica was, right?

Joelle: Yeah, pretty much every woman on the show was like, "What's the point of your outrage?"

Mark: But not the men

Michael: The women on that show are great

Mark: Yeah

Joelle: But they were problematic as well

Mark: Well yeah, I mean, y'know

Michael: Great actresses

Joelle: But it's a great show if you just turn it on and not pay attention to anything. I love putting on Friends when I'm writing. You just pop up and know exactly where you are in space and time and what's happening with the crew and then you just go right back to your stuff

Mark: You put it on and drink alone, and it's fine

Joelle: It's wonderful.

Joelle: I just wanna ask one question because I feel like it's gonna change the temperature of how I talk about Heavenly Creatures. Does anyone watch The Magicians?

Michael, Mark, Nay, Brennan: No

Joelle: Okay, so it's not gonna happen.

Michael: It just premiered, right?

Joelle: If you watch The Magicians, and you ship Eliot and Quentin, especially in season four and what's happening with them right now, you'll understand my feelings about Heavenly Creatures. I'll explain a little later.

Mark: Joelle, I don't need an explanation because this movie rules, but why was this your pick to talk about on the show?

Joelle: For many reasons. One, I am a Paul through and through. She has scars on her legs, I have scars on my back from back surgery. I was in love with my best friend in high school, it was very confusing and a lot of emotions were happening. I was weird and very angry for no reason at all. I was very hormonal and like every time I watch this movie, I'm like, listen. I don't wanna identify too much with someone who murdered their mother. I love my mother, she's amazing. But I see Paul's point pretty much the whole way through.

Michael: Uh-huh

Joelle: People are like, "What?" And Paul makes a lot of sense to me. And second, I'm obsessed with fantasy films. All fantasy, every genre. And then for Peter Jackson to imbue so much otherworldliness in here…

Michael: And so unique

Joelle: These clay features and…

Michael: So great

Joelle: It's weird and ugly but it's also…

Michael: And scary

Joelle: Yeah! And then gory just all of a sudden and I like the way that he took all of the childhood kind of fantasy things from toys that are your size you can play with to, you know, the unicorn fairylands. I was very into Lisa Frank as a child. All of that kind of comes pushed together, and then he surrounds it all with the way teen girls create their own worlds. And I can't recall another film, a little bit Thirteen maybe, but there's no film that better describes how girls create their own… earthquake?

Michael: Yeah, was that just an earthquake?

Joelle: Yeah, what is happening? There's a lot of shaking happening. Sorry guys

Mark: Yeah.

Joelle: Yeah, the way teen girls alienate everybody else…

Michael: Uh, Mark. It's gonna be okay, Mark

Nay: (deep voice) "Teen girls!"

Joelle: They're rising and they're amazing

Mark: They heard you and were like, (deep voice) "Yes?"

Michael: (as a teen girl) "You say something?"

Joelle: So yeah. That is the reason why I chose this

Mark: Those are a lot of great reasons

Nay: Hell yeah

Joelle: Just because somebody hasn't seen a movie doesn't mean they won't see it or that they don't like it. We don't have to be all uppity about it

Michael: It doesn't mean their queerness is any different

Nay: Also, someone that does not have my job does not get to tell me I'm not qualified for mine

Joelle: That is also so true

Nay: That's just how I feel about that

Brennan: Oh shit

(snaps all around)

Joelle: We live on the internet. Everyone's telling us we're not trained enough. Sir, I went to college. Leave me alone

Nay: Sir, I am six figures into college debt, so please leave me alone

Joelle: Just for film! Leave me be! Facts: We're laying them on you today

Mark: Does anyone have any childhood friendships that smacked of ho, ho, homosexuality?

Joelle: Talk about that lip closeup

Brennan: (groans in the background)

Mark: The most revolting mouth

Joelle: It's right there that you just wanna slap everybody in this movie. You're just like, "Everyone is terrible! Awful! Go to hell!" Childhood friends? Yes. Like I said, I was in love with my best friend, the only Black girls in middle school. That's not true, there was one other one, we kinda hung out but Camille and I were like this. Especially the whole ideal of being "sister-wives" which is my favorite- ugh, gosh, no one explains these things to young girls and they need to know…

Mark: Wait, that was a plot twist. I did not expect that

Joelle: But that's just how young lesbians fall in love! Because they're like best friends first. Typically they're like really good friends or they're hanging out and then we're like, "I wanna be like sisters. I want your parents and we're always on the phone together and we're always at each other's houses," and so people start referring to us as sisters. But then, "Do I wanna kiss you? It's a little confusing. I don't know what's happening." And I love that perfect age of thirteen, fifteen where you're figuring things out, you become a little bit like sister-wives. They know all your secrets. They know, y'know, literally everything there is to know about you, teenage girls know about one another when they're close. Everything. The dirty things, the good things, the weird one-off things. And I feel like we sometimes get that in movies, but it's so often overshadowed by "And one of them fell in love and what will their relationship be like now that the other one has a boyfriend?" Or they're veering off in different directions. It's the plot of 17 Again and Pretty in Pink and I could just go on and on and on. But here you get alllll the way until the very end, besties

Michael: Yeah, the friendship is explored non-stop

Joelle: It's wonderful

Michael: It's pretty great. I never looked at it that way. That's cool

Joelle: Sister-wives

Nay: I mean, I was so deeply closeted, even to myself… the last time I was home in central Illinois, my mom was like, "Please go through this box of your shit and throw stuff away, 'cause I'm gonna do it for you." So I'm going through, and I read these like, hundreds of letters that I'd written, that I'd received, from my best friend in high school. She was four years older than me, so when she went away to college in Florida, I was writing her every day. And so, I never for a single second would have been like, "I wanna kiss this person," or, "I'm in love with this person," or whatever. But reading the letters now, as an old-ass gay woman, I'm like, "Bitch. You loved her." Literally, I would write her every day, and the end of each letter would be like, "Thirty-two days until I see you." You know, like counting down always. It was reciprocal, she wrote me back. We were really tight

Mark: That's so sweet!

Nay: I know!

Michael: That is sweet. That just reminded me of your care package to your camp counselor. Remember Mark's care package?

Nay: Yes, exactly. I was sending her hella care packages

Mark: Peak child homosexual behavior

Nay: Yeah

Mark: It was like truly, like I think my mom was even like, "You're gonna…? Okay." To my mom's credit, I think she was like, "I guess we're doing this."

Michael: (as Mark's mom) "Oh, you put a jockstrap in there hon."

Mark: Yeah. (as his mom) "Oh look, there's a copy of, what's this magazine, Honcho? Okay, sure. Yeah."

Nay: And my mom was like, "Look at these two good little Christian girls just being pen pals." And at the time, that's what it was

Michael: Nay's mental work

Nay: Yes. But looking back, I'm like, "Oh."

Mark: You're like, (deep voice) "What does your tongue taste like?!"

Nay: Yeah. Exactly

Joelle: It's so weird, because sometimes I feel like I long for those days, 'cause mixed with anything can happen, the possibilities of childhood. And then sometimes I'm like, the hormonal chaos could not possibly be worth it

Michael: I look back on it and get a little sad too, 'cause it's like every, like kind of similar to Nay, I was suppressing it but realized as I got older that I had crushes on friends. And those crushes were clearly never reciprocated, so there's a tinge of sadness when you think about it

Joelle: Yeah

Michael: 'Cause you're like coming into your own, but you don't know it at the same time, and you don't recognize your feelings the way your peers are probably recognizing theirs. And then yeah, it's a one-sided street in a lot of ways, too. It's just like, there's nostalgia but there's also like, "Fuck me. I'm never going back there."

Joelle: I told my crush that I was into her, senior year

Michael: Oh, you did?

Joelle: She was a year younger than me. It didn't go well.

Michael: Awww!

Mark: Ohhh!

Joelle: It's fine. She ended up marrying her high school sweetheart. They have four kids now and they're adorable and beautiful. But it was definitely hard to be like, this person I shared everything with for the past six years, I was like, "I think I like you." And she was like, "Ohhhhh. No. Not feeling it."

Nay: I still can't tell people when I like them

Joelle: Oh, it's very hard still. But then again, I've never liked anybody in- I just don't, I really feel like love is not in my cards in that way. It's just so much work if you care about other people and I'm like, "What if I just went to bed and drank some hot cocoa?"

Mark: Oh my God!

Michael: God, Joelle!

Joelle: I don't need my emotional support to be in a relationship. All of it terrifies me. You've gotta tell them the truth, all the time? It's so stressful!

Nay: You don't. You don't, okay?

Joelle: But that's not gonna be the good foundation of a relationship!

Michael: Nay is amazing

Nay: I mean, they lying anyway, so you might as well lie too

Joelle: I can't! The second-guessing! I just can't

Michael: Oh my God

Mark: Oh my God

Michael: I just wanna sit and listen

Mark: I know. Well, there was a kid in middle school that I- we didn't so much mess around or have like, a thing. But we would sort of go to the edge and then just not do anything. So I would go to his house, we'd play like, Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!...

Michael: Oh my God!

Joelle: Yeees!!!

Michael: Piston Honda was hot

Mark: Then we'd get naked and hang out for a minute and then we'd be like, "Okay!" And put our clothes back on

Joelle: What? Children are wild

Mark: And then…

Michael: Would you guys stare at each other?

Mark: Yeah

Michael: Okay

Mark: It would be like, "Okay, all right."

Michael: "I see what you got. Okay."

Mark: And then it was like, "Are you gonna?" "Nope." "Are you gonna?" "Nope." "Okay, I guess we're gonna go…"

Joelle: You guys were playing Naked Chicken! Amazing!

Mark: Yeah. Naked Chicken. And then eventually we both blinked, essentially, and then we would go on the couch and watch Commando

Michael: Oh God

Joelle: Wow

Mark: Which, I mean, you know, when you look at it that way it's kind of Freudian.

Michael: Looking at it, that's going all the way

Mark: So yeah, that was the extent

Michael: Do you… what is this person's life like now?

Mark: He is now in government. In Canada

Michael: Is he a homosexual?

Mark: No. And he grew up really hot. And, y'know….

Joelle: I'm gonna headcanon him as on the Down-low. That's just gonna happen

Mark: Listen, I have no knowledge at all and I wish him well. I wish him well as he trudges in this valley of…

Michael: Life

Joelle: This vast terrain of terror

Mark: Yes

Joelle: Oh, God

Mark: It's interesting because when I was a kid, I watched this movie so many times. And I actually saw this movie for the first time with my father

Joelle: Oh, me too!

Mark: Which, oof. That was a rough experience. 'Cause I was just like, (as his younger self) "This film is well reviewed and has gotten so many awards! Papa, let's go!" (normal voice) And…

Joelle: Was your dad your-- 'cause my dad was my introduction to most movies. He's like a film, not a real historian, but a historian

Mark: I don't know that I would put it that way, but we definitely went to films more often than I went to the movies with my mom. And y'know, like this, or Safe (1995), which I also demanded he take me to, which, there were a lot of experiences early on, especially if something had gay themes and I had no idea, like a Crying Game, good lord

Joelle: I love it.

Mark: Holy shit

Joelle: So my dad has no gauge of what's appropriate for a child, like at all, so I saw Starship Troopers when I was five.

Mark: Ohhhh my God!

Michael: Great film

Joelle: And I was very disturbed by the whipping scene. I was like, "What's happening?!" And he was like, "Joelle, it just looks like a crayon, it's just flashing in the background. Nothing's happening. You know that actor's fine." I'm like five, this is very traumatic

Mark: My kingdom for that childhood, because my parents wouldn't let me watch the movie Grease when I was like, twelve

Joelle: To be fair, there's a lot of unhealthy themes in Grease…

Michael: There is!

Joelle: And I get it, but damn, that soundtrack though

Michael: All that sexual innuendo

Mark: They weren't woke like, "No, she's changing her entire self to please a man…"

Joelle: She is!

Mark: "You're not watching this movie for those reasons." No, there was not for that reason, they were just like...

Nay: They were like, "Rizzo's a slut!"

Mark: Yeah. They were like, "There's dancing! Pelvic thrusts!"

Joelle: Your parents are from Footloose?

Mark: I dunno, I dunno. But Jacques and Mary-Anne were not into it

Michael: Both played by John Lithgow

Mark: Yes, exactly

Michael: I didn't know that you had home censorship. I had it, too.

Mark: I had to sneak everything

Michael: We weren't allowed to watch shit in my house!

Mark: Me too. I snuck everything

Michael: My parents had MTV blocked.

Mark: Wow!

Michael: They would literally call the cable company every year, 'cause remember when the channels used to change numbers all the time?

Joelle: Yeah

Michael:  Every time they changed numbers MTV would come back, so they'd literally call the cable company and be like, "Can you block channel number thirty-seven."

Joelle:This is so wild.

Nay: I wasn't allowed to watch Fear Factor

Mark: 'Cause they thought you were going to be driven over the edge by like a Whitesnake video or something?

Michael: I guess. What's that, Nay?

Joelle: Fear Factor?

Nay: I wasn't allowed to watch Fear Factor

Joelle: Fear Factor? Network? That's…

Nay: And I was old by the time that came out. I think I was gonna move out in a year or something. My mom was like, "Uh, they're eating blood? That is the devil."

Mark: She was like, I was about to say, DAB was like, "This is darksided."

Nay: Yeah, DAB was like, "No. Can't walk outside without a booty flag hitting you in the face. Darksided."

Michael: Wow. Darksided DAB

Joelle: I always thought my parents were so strict. And now I'm like, "Oh my God."

Michael: No Married… with Children in our household, no Roseanne. What were some other sitcoms we weren't allowed to watch?

Nay: My momma is Roseanne

Joelle: My mother would just leap across me at any sex scene. She'd just be like, "No!!" Just a deep dive and just smack my face outta the way so I couldn't see

Nay: 'Cause that's better

Joelle: It's really, I can hear everything and I'm very aware something shameful is happening, I guess? I very much internalized the shame of like, "Sex is something we do not talk about it, you don't look at it, keep that way over there," and then I moved to Boystown freshman year of college and I was like, "Oh that's so cool, different and wild!"

Michael: (as Joelle's mom) "Oh honey, the sex scene's over now. People are just being shot over and over, you can watch again."

Mark: Right, exactly

Joelle: No, but the violent parts they were like, "Whatever"

Nay: That's wild. I'm like, "I can read the Bible, but I can't watch this?"

Michael: And the Bible kills billions

Nay: And what is more violent than the Bible? I don't understand

Mark: Nothing. Literally nothing

Michael: Literally floods the earth

Nay: In my home if you replaced Dan with Jesus, I grew up in the Conner's home

Michael: DAB and Jesus Conner?

Nay: Yeah. DAB and Jesus Conner

Mark: I have a chicken-egg question: As queer people growing up, do you think that your parents knew on some level and that's why they tried to stop you from watching certain things that they think would trigger you?

Joelle: Oooh

Mark: 'Cause sometimes I wonder. My mother knew. Like she just knew

Michael: Yep. My mom told me she figured I was gay when I told her I was gay, but granted I was in my twenties. But I remember specifically we were told we weren't allowed to watch Roseanne because Martin Mull's character came on, and they were like, "Roseanne's gonna have a gay boss, so you're not allowed to watch that show!"

Nay: Oh my God

Joelle: Wow

Michael: Those were probably the actual words

Mark: Yeah, all those blowjobs he was gonna do on the show

Michael: Yeah, at the Rodbell's lunch counter

Joelle: Rodbell's!!! I don't know. I've never come out to my dad. My parents are still married, I came out to my mom when I was nineteen. She cried a lot, but because she was like, "I told you you could tell me," "Well, I wasn't ready to tell you and now I am." And she was like, "I just thought we were close!" I think she was more upset about the fact that it took me nineteen years to tell her more than anything else. But my dad and I, we would talk about how hot chicks were at like fourteen, so I always felt he knew and I didn't feel the need to come out to him

Nay: Oh my God, daps bro! Takin' me to movies, talkin' about hotness

Joelle: Dad was just really open to whatever the hell was going down. He was very much ride with the flow. I was never like a kid to my dad, I was more like a very tiny adult who should do what he says. He would be like, "We're gonna grab some beers," and I would come down and watch the football game but not drink the beer. Anyway, so no, I don't know if dad definitely didn't. Mom maybe did, but she was still kind of prudish. She was like, "Don't watch sexy things. I don't want you to see any of that." I think she just didn't want us to be whores. I think that was her only stipulation

Mark: (as Joelle's mom) "Don't be a whore." (normal voice) Okay, so I asked that question- when I was a kid, all I did was fixate on Paul and Juliet. But watching it now, at an older age, I was watching the adults a little more in the film, and what I love is the way Peter Jackson directs, the parents are in a horror movie about having gay children

Michael: Yeah

Joelle: Mmm-hmm

Mark: (Peter Jackson) absolutely leans into this idea that this for them, that's the horror movie, and what I love about this movie is that it's so brilliant that he angles it that way and makes everything for the parents have to do with, "Oh my God, our daughters are lesbians! Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God!"

Michael: Right

Mark: And it's like, "No. They're dissociative, that's the fucking problem." They are, they have a tenuous grip on reality and you are ignoring the real fucking problem. And for 1994, I was like, "Wow, that is an incredibly complex way to address the question of Paul and Juliet's lesbian attraction, lesbian relationship." Which could have easily, easily been sensationalized in a way that's so… it could have been really prurient, and I think that, you know, there's another version or two of this story, done in surprise-surprise France that is a lot more, you know, peek-a-boo kind of, diaphanous robes approach to the material. But this movie really takes their love seriously. I mean, it's really over-the-top, but it feels true

Michael: They're in love!

Mark: I dunno. For me it works, but how does the movie work for you guys?

Michael: There's an interesting aspect to what you said about the horror for the parents and having lesbian children. I kept thinking to myself like, "There is the dissociative aspect to that," but at the same time I kept thinking, "These parents are fucking lucky. They have fifteen year-old daughters still playing princess. They're not doing drugs, they're not drinking," you know what I mean?

Mark: They're not getting pregnant

Michael: I'm thinking to myself, "And they're like, panicking about their behavior." Kate Winslet's walking around with a crown on her head playing like Shakespeare at fifteen. They should be super happy that there's a kind of innocence about them still.

Joelle: I mean at one point they complain about the fact that they're in their room writing

Michael: Yeah!

Joelle: And I was like, (sputters)

Michael: (as one of the parents) "How dare you be a woman and learn on your own!"

Joelle: I was Paul. I would just write all the goddamn time in my room, and my parents would be like, "You wanna come out?" And I'd be like, "No, this is really comfortable in here. I just don't like people all that much and I'm not good at connecting with them and you moved me out here with nobody who looks like me. I just wanna be alone." And I would just write stories or watch TV or consume movies or read comic books, and my whole world was based very heavily just in fantasy. And the idea of escapism as a safety route for kids who are othered is so strong throughout this film and so important, and again something I could just identify with, the idea of, "My body is physically broken and so I can't do the things that the other kids are doing," which is very much my childhood. I couldn't, you know. as far as trying to connect with the other kids and they're like, you know, "Oh, let's go, we're gonna guzz." I was just a very serious student even outside of class. And I liked the idea that fantasy here was seen as so positive. And the way Jackson progressed it throughout the film was oh so good

Michael: It's so great

Joelle: At first it was little lighting and sound cues to be like, "Oh, something's a little weird off." And what I thought was the most interesting was he does the closeup of the horse pretty early on, and it's nothing is happening, but it's really magical and you get the idea instantly of, "Oh, this pony's in fairy tale land." And the way it slowly progresses until when they finally consummate their relationship and it's so vivid and real and you have real people mixed with those clay people and it's finally a completed world for them. There's so many times I just wanted to protect these girls from the monsters that were in their life, and the idea that, you know, "Oh you're writing, that's a problem." "Oh you wanna hang out with a friend who has not in any way been a negative influence." "Oh, she's sullen." She's fourteen! Have you met any other teenagers?

Michael: Right. Like the teacher's getting upset that she knows French properly, you know what I mean? All the adults are getting mad at them for these positive things. And I think a lot of it has to do with they have their own minds and their own thoughts, and they just can't handle that. That's how the adult characters responded to everything they did. Like, "You are not allowed to go up to your room and write, missy." Wow

Mark: I still had compassion for, especially Mrs. Rieper.

Michael: Oh, I wanted all the parents to die

Mark: I had compassion for Mrs. Rieper because it's like when Paul says, you know, "You ran away with Dad at seventeen. Nana Parker told me." And I got the impression that, obviously yes these parents are not prepared to deal with their daughters becoming women, essentially, and sort of asserting their interests and their desires in a way that is foreign to them. But in addition there was also a sense that, I got the idea that on some level the parents were also jealous of the freedom that these children clearly demonstrated

Michael: Yeah, there was that. Especially the mothers

Mark: Doctor Hume is incredibly constrained in his job and his life, his marriage is really punishing and weird. And Mrs. Hume is just like…

Michael: (sotto voce) I love her!

Mark: I love her, she's just...

Joelle: Mrs. Hume is living all of our best lives. Mrs. Hume said, "I'll help you. Actually I'm going to fuck you."

Mark: She's Doctor Sexmonster, I love her

Michael: (as Mrs. Hume) "I'm gonna play doubles tennis with my fuck partner."

Joelle: "And then I'm gonna move him in in front of everybody." He's coming from the hospital! That man is not sick, woman. Oh my God

Mark: Yeah, it's amazing

Michael: So great

Nay: I think all straight parents are jealous of their gay kids

Mark: On some level?

Nay: Yeah

Mark: Why is that?

Nay: In my experience, I think my mom, as wrong as she thinks most of the things I do are, I think part of her is so in awe of the freedom she thinks I have in doing that. And I think that they're jealous, I do think that they're jealous. Because I think to especially be an out queer person, you, as much bravery as it shouldn't take to live your life that way, it just does. And I think that a lot of our parents, depending on the age that they are, I know my mom, she just grew up being told, "You just need to be ladylike…" there's all these politics of respectability and I mean, no one in my family even has a tattoo. It was just, I find it…

Joelle: My mother told me only people who worship the devil have tattoos and when I got one she cried

Michael: Oh my God

Nay: Yeah. Exactly

Michael: I think there's an extension from that that trickles down into the rest of your life as well, you know, whether it's creatively, artistically work, just, you know what I mean?

Nay: Yeah

Michael: I think queer people tend to seek out the things they want to do, and don't suppress those wants and desires, needs. Because you kind of take a big step no matter what age you are when you do it, and opening yourself to just possibilities

Joelle: Absolutely

Michael: And you do that with everything as an extension

Nay: Mmm-hmm. Yeah. And if your parents are living in a world where there's all kinds, I mean we all have all kinds of things we don't do for various reasons, but like, I have an aunt who won't wear sleeveless shirts 'cause she thinks her arms are fat

Joelle: So many women in my family

Nay: But my arms are fat, and I think even something as small as that, my family, they see me with a sleeveless shirt and they're like, "Damn! She going off, okay? Her arms are out," and you know, I just, I low-key feel like my family, as religious as they are, as, I dunno, just all the things that they are, there's a little bit of jealousy there

Mark: I'm sure especially when there's a religious component built in, I'm sure that's absolutely...

Michael: Well Paul's mom I felt the entire movie that she had jealousy. There was a little part of me that was wondering if Paul's mom was like a lesbian herself at one point and was wondering if the story was gonna go there, where we see some sort of sign that she's jealous of Paul because she's a lesbian

Mark: Mmm-hmm

Michael: I mean, she's tied down to a kitchen twenty-four/seven, you know...

Mark: Yep

Michael: She's got these boarders, mostly men, that…

Brennan: You mean the Parade of Twinks coming in and out of their house?

Michael: "Parade of Twinks"

Nay: For real

Michael: So I was wondering if the story was gonna go that way and ultimately of course, it doesn't

Joelle: You totally see that jealousy when she has Paul leave school and it's such a whiplash moment of, "You're not doing well." "I'm trying to write a book! I'm in interested in other things." Because the thing is like, I mean, parents if you're listening and you have gay kids and you're confused or scared or whatever, I honestly  all the parents, and I honestly think that for the most part all parent reactions come from places of love and that any time there's frustration or friction, it's a problem of communication. None of these parents are able to communicate effectively with their children. She's just screaming at her, every time she's upset with Paul, she immediately bursts into hysterics and is like, "Why are you doing this?!" And I don't understand, instead of asking her like, "Tell me more about your book," and "Why are you failing English just to write a book? Authors read all of the time, they write all of the time. You can do both. Let's talk about it." She never has any kind of conversations that would allow Paul to express her frustrations or why she's feeling the way she is

Michael: That's a really great point. She never once asks (Paul) what she wants, or how she feels. Ever

Mark: No, because these people are not taught, they weren't taught to ask questions either because nobody asked them questions, you know, and that's the chain

Nay: Speaking of twink parade, ol' boy that (Paul) hooks up with

Mark: Oh God

Nay: How old is that boy?

Mark: That's maybe the most traumatizing straight sex scene

Nay: Right. How old is that man? Are we led to believe...

Joelle: He's way older

Michael: The actor was thirty-one when he filmed the movie

Mark: What?

Nay: Okay, what age is that person supposed to be playing. Someone over eighteen, right?

Joelle: Yeah. Oh, definitely

Michael: Twenty-five at the youngest I'd say

Nay: I'm like, "Why you mad at me? You need to go talk to this grown-ass man." First of all...

Michael: Exactly!

Joelle: That part was so frustrating

Michael: It was so frustrating

Joelle: What did her dad say, "I'm ashamed of you," or "You broke my heart." I was like, "Dad, what the hell?!" Like, "Are you okay? Did this man… what just happened?"

Nay: "You just got raped or what?" Like the trope of the fast young girl that we still hear about throughout these documentaries that are out right now…

Michael: It's sadly… in a way it's a realistic reaction, yeah

Mark: But that's what's brilliant about the movie, is that the movie has so much compassion for these girls, for their relationship. It doesn't condone what they do, it's absolutely horrified and of course, you know, kind of titillated by it, because the end's set to, you know, the Madame Butterfly aria that's just fucking beautiful. It doesn't matter how many times I see it, it still takes my breath away every time they go on that hike

Joelle: It's such a great moment because this whole time they've been together idolizing these guys, and when they consummate, Paul's shadow is of the guy that she originally wanted to put on the altar

Mark: She has the Orson Welles...

Joelle: Hat

Mark: Yeah

Joelle: And it's her shadow that's projected on the wall. And then also there's no more men singing opera, it's her, it's um...

Michael: Kate Winslet

Mark: Kate Winslet

Joelle: Yeah. It's such a beautiful moment of being like, "I'm done with men!" Which is how I entirely read that

Michael: That's why Peter Jackson's so great

Joelle: And so far ahead of his time!

Mark: It is a lesbian anthem that never got its time

Michael: Well, there's a really great aspect to it, too, where if this movie was made today, one of the parents would have The Turnaround. You know what I mean?

Joelle: They would embrace the daughter

Michael: They'd have that scene where…

Nay: Def the slutty mom

Michael: Here's the Oscar moment for this actor-- it probably would have been, you're right, here's the Oscar

Mark: Doctor Slutty Mom?

Joelle: The porn parody of Heavenly Creatures?

Mark: Marriage counseling

Michael: Julianne Moore would play her

Joelle: Yes! Get it

Michael: There's an honesty to that, too, that there wasn't that moment for one of the parents to have redemption. Because for a lot of young queer people, they don't have that parent that has that redemptive arc, and you know, my parents, you know, accepting as they were, I never had that moment either. My mom still has it, my dad had it before he died, you know, so there's an honesty to it. And I really appreciate that because too often we see these movies where it's just like the one, like Nicole Kidman in Boy Erased, you know, has the scene that you're waiting for the whole movie

Joelle: "I've come to you! I understand my child now!"

Brennan: The entire third act of Love, Simon is a chain of those scenes

Michael: Right. Which is great at the same time

Joelle: Yes, the gaybies, they deserve a chance to see themselves being accepted and loved and all of that

Michael: Exactly

Joelle: But it doesn't happen for everybody and I think to show that is important

Michael: Exactly. Especially, you know, I dunno. It would be nice to see a movie like Love, Simon where the entire third act is actually the entire movie, and it's after that. The whole movie's just people being accepting

Joelle: Right, right, right. "I'm just adjusted and I'm just being gay in my life."

Michael: Just a gay kid, y'know

Joelle: Oh man, like when you see Black people in the movies not anything about being Black, you're like, "What is happening?! There's no church scene in this movie?! What the fuck?!"

Nay: Halle Berry in The Flintstones. She always talks about how that was her first role that she got, that the role  had nothing to do with her being Black

Joelle: Do you know why? The Flintstones was pretty much put together by a Black female producer and she slayed that movie. I cannot remember her name

Michael: That's a really great fact to know. That's both great facts

Nay: You know I'm obsessed with Halle Berry. Didn't we talk about this last show? Like, ob-sessed.

Mark: We talked about it, we talked about Kidnap

Michael: The Call, and Kidnap

Mark: The Call is a good movie. Kidnap is… a movie

Michael: It's a movie. It's an entertaining movie. Hasn't Jordan Peele said that was one of his main reasons for doing Us, right? Where race is actually not going to be part of the movie whatsoever

Joelle: It's going to be so interesting to see how that movie is covered, because already people are like, "What are the implications of this Black family?" And "It's a Black thing." And I'm like, Jordan has been very specific about the fact that this is about individuals looking inward at themselves and it's not a "Black film". I'm going to be really interested to read some reviews after that comes out

Mark: The think pieces are coming

Nay: Okay? Because all them motherfuckers love to be like, "Uhhh, why you being racist with this?" And then they look at a Black person, and they need to acknowledge how they do not see anything other than a Black person. Like you just see it, and that's okay

Joelle: "I have met a Black person before!"

Nay: Yeah

Joelle: Yeah. I agree entirely

Joelle: I was curious to see how (Heavenly Creatures) was reviewed in its time, and I copied a quote from Roger Ebert and I'm gonna read it to you guys, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts

Michael: Yes, please do

Joelle: So, I said before, I'm from Chicago and Roger Ebert is my God, he is everything. The man loved movies in a way that was so pure…

Mark: He wrote Beyond the Valley of the Dolls

Michael: That's right!

Joelle: I wanna cry. He's so wonderful

Mark: Enough said. He's a legend for that alone

Nay: Hometown proud. Hometown proud, Roger Ebert

Joelle: Yes. So in his review of this, in 1994, which you can still find on his website, he says, "Indeed, we can see in awkward little scenes in which they wrestle together or exchange 'accidental'," those are in quotes, "kisses, that there is a strong connection between Juliet and Paul. But whether it is a homosexual relationship is not for anyone in this movie to ask or understand." I don't agree with my hero!

Mark: But I understand why he sees it that way

Joelle: I don't! Because nothing about it felt "accidental" to me

Michael: The kisses weren't

Mark: But the sex scene, when they actually consummate, the literal or digital roleplay that's happening with Orson Welles and all, I can see why he would be like, "Peter Jackson isn't trying to categorize them. He's allowing their relationship to be truthful to what they were," which they were sort of fabulous, they were not entirely there, and they were absolutely in love with each other, there was a complete folie a deux, but at the same time it wasn't, you can't just call it "a lesbian romance" because ninety-nine-point-nine percent of lesbian romances don't end with a dead mom, so…

Nay: Or do they?

Michael: Or should they?

Nay: Or should they?

Joelle: Maybe forty percent end with, "My mom died and now we can be together!"

Mark: So I understand why he said that, but also please tell me why you disagree

Michael: It's an interesting discussion because there's--

Joelle: Well, just 'cause I felt like I lived that life…

Mark: Sure

Joelle: And then I was gay! It's weird to me to see those scenes and then, I guess maybe again, I see myself so much as a Paul, it's hard to imagine someone being like, "Oh, the accidental kisses and who knows if they're gay." I'm like, "Those girls are having gay experiences at the very least. If they don't want to categorize themselves as gay, because they're both still alive today." Do you guys know what happened to Juliet after this?

Mark: Okay, so I have a true and false game organized, so we will discuss

Joelle: Okay, I'll leave it, I'll leave it

Mark: (feigning anger) Don't you spoil my game, Joelle. You will never come back here, Joelle!

Joelle: I won't do it, I won't do it!

Michael: Continue what you were saying because I love it

Joelle: Just the idea that it reads so queer to me that it's almost impossible not to see it as that. And it's fascinating to me that like, 1994, I'm gonna go back and read more film critic reviews of that time, just to see what the general consensus was. Obviously it was a well-reviewed film, and people thought it was beautiful. But on the queer aspect, and especially when you read; I don't know how often people read old reviews, I read them a lot

Michael: I look at his site every once in awhile and find something, like a gem

Mark: I do, especially his

Joelle: Yeah, yeah. The way film criticism works to me has changed a lot, because back in the day it was like, very strict you know. You keep your, it's definitely under a thousand words, it's probably closer to eight hundred, you're gonna start with your concise breakdown and then a couple filtered opinions. But when I attack a film review, it's almost always from a socially conscious point, I'm just very much a Black queer lady, so that's where I always start off and if the message doesn't hit me there, I don't really care how good the film is, the rest of-- if you're mistaking identities, it bothers me. It does! And I'm not going to be able to enjoy your film, and so I'm curious to see how people took in the queer aspects of this film back in the day. You guys have a good review, you wanna send it to me, I'd appreciate it. Yeah, I didn't feel let down by Roger Ebert, but I did disagree with his point

Mark: I mean, I get it. I get it. I also think, but it's weird, I see your point, I see his too. I dunno. I guess I just appreciate the way Peter Jackson is willing to address the relationship in an honest way and not shy away from the fact that there was physicality to it

Joelle: Yeah

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Michael: Well, there's no…

Mark: But at the same time, not being willing to pathologize anything about the relationship as being a cause of anything

Joelle: What's crazy is that if this film was released today, it would be fine as far as a lot… because even the, you mentioned earlier the sex scene between her and John I think it is, between Paul and John? Never sexualized in the way it's filmed. In the way it's filmed, she's never meant to be sexy or confident or even-- it's very much, "That's a child and you should get away from her. This is so creepy and I don't understand it."

Mark: And that she actively sort of disassociates to get through the experience

Nay: Yeah

Joelle: And that scene of like, having his voice come in and out, and this idea of, "I would just like to really not be here," which happens sometimes

Nay: (exhales) Yeah

Joelle: (groan of disgust) But again, just the authenticity of it, almost every scene I've seen like that, even when the movie's point is they should not have been together because the age gap thing is weird will in some way sexualize the girl, or make her responsible for what has happened. And the fact that Jasckson doesn't even come close to doing that in 1994, it's kind of mindblowing

Michael: It really is

Mark: Yep, it is

Nay: Also, how many young lesbians have had sex with a twink, twinky gay boy? I'm like, "I did!"

Joelle: So man-- I've seen so many! Like I said, I was in Boystown by eighteen...

Mark: Like a deeply femme, go very femme boy

Nay: Yeah, you know, you're like, "Twink parade. I don't know I'm a dyke yet. Why am I attracted to these gay boys?"

Joelle: Especially now. I think you look at Gen-Z, late millennials and they've very much been living in a post-Friends world where it's like, "Hey! It's totally cool for you to be out and gay and whatever your gender is, we'll figure that out, it's totally cool!"

Michael: Do things, yeah

Joelle: A lot of those kids are like, "I'm not quite sure what I am so I'm just gonna sleep with things that sort of resemble what I might like and we'll figure it out along the way." I think it's beautiful. C'mon guys, get it

Mark: Beautiful. Beautiful. Good job, kids

Brennan: I'd like to chime in real quick with the Roger Ebert thing

Joelle: Yeah

Brennan: 'Cause what I think he's responding to is that the two girls, all of their sexual encounters are kind of refracted through a heterosexual lens…

Nay: Yes!

Brennan: Like they're roleplaying like, "We are this king and queen." They're roleplaying like, "I'm Orson Welles and you're whatever, I'm James Mason."

Joelle: De-bor-ah. The best name

Michael: De-bor-ah, love it

Joelle: Find me a De-bor-ah, seriously!

Nay: Okay, Debra, like we all gotta chill

Michael: Debbie

Mark: If you met a De-bor-ah, would you be like…?

Joelle: I'm in it, immediately. "Let's talk."

Nay: You'd be like, "I already know your drama…"

Michael: "What Housewives show are you on?" That's what I would say

Mark: "What's your tagline?"

Joelle: I'm sorry, what was your…?

Brennan: Well, 'cause every part of the world that they create and the relationship between them is refracted through all of this other culture and everything they're being fed, everything that they see. And nothing that they see represents how they're feeling, so they're creating something new, but it's out of pieces of all these other things that are all heteronormative

Joelle: You just blew my mind a little bit, because I hadn't stopped to think about the reason they had to go through hererosxeual relationships to get to their lesbianism. That is wild!

Mark: I actually think it's… Brennan, I love that you brought this up because it is their identities, their fantasies are refracted through the media they consume. The movie actually begins with media, it begins with a travelogue. And it begins with, "Christchurch, blah blah blah," and it's just so like, it's the most vanilla…

Michael: It's so 1950s

Mark: Yeah, it's the most vanilla, ordered, simple… and the movie, their story is literally born like screaming, ripping through that story. And that's the most sane, simple media that you-- those are the most calm images you see the rest of the film, and it's just really interesting to see how, I dunno, what do you guys make out of the choice of beginning with that? I think it's not just to introduce Christchurch to a larger audience

Michael: I think it was also just a way to introduce us to the timeframe, too, because it reminded me a lot of those old health videos you'd watch in grade school that were from the fuckin' fifties, teachin' you about shit…

Nay: Yeah

Mark: Mmm-hmm. Oh my God, have you ever seen The Story of Menstruation?

Joelle: Yeees!

Michael: I think I have

Mark: Have you seen the Disney one?

Joelle: It's so wild!

Michael: Is that the Disney one?

Mark: Yeah. Where the, where the… (groans)

Joelle: Yeah! If you go to Epcot, there's a little section; so my friend has the best story. Her mom was pregnant with twins. She's from the Deep South, and they were like, "Well, we're not gonna tell our nine-year old about sex." They just took her there. They walked out and left her with the movie to try and understand sex because of it

Michael: Oh my God! (fey voice) "I learned about sex because of Epcot."

Mark: Correct me if I'm wrong, but The Story of Menstruation is the one that features, she's like a young woman who, with cartoons, it's a cartoon. Where she has her first period and she sits in front of the mirror and she's crying...

Joelle: Yeah

Mark: Because she's hormonal, whatever, and she's going through it. And then her reflection taps her on the shoulder and is like, "No, you have to put on a happy face for everyone…"

Joelle: "Happy face," yeah

Mark: It's so fucked up. It's very surreal

Joelle: It's a very fucked up perspective. It's like, "No one cares that it's your period, man the fuck up." It's like, "Oh, okay."

Nay: Wow

Mark: And then it's like, (faux chipper) "Brought to you by Disney!"

Nay: Oh. My God

Mark: It's on YouTube. It is something else

Michael: Jiminy Cricket is like…

Nay: Oh my God, I am like, literally going to have the angriest, wildest period of my life my next period just in protest of that shit. I'm callin' my ovaries right now. I'm like, "Y'all better act up."

Mark: You're just gonna drive your car into a Target kind of period?

Nay: I'm like, "All that progesterone? Drop off right now, honey. I'm tryin' to be constipated and then diarrhea immediately. I'm tryin' to be angry. AHHHH! Yes! Light it up!"

Joelle: Yes! Talk about it! Let the world know!

Michael: Fuck you, Disney

Nay: Fuck you, Disney

Michael: I wanna meet Nay's future period

Nay: You'll meet her. You'll meet her. She'll be around.

Mark: She'll be comin' round the mountain

Nay: Yes she will

Joelle: I had a question. So I am really fascinated with Paul's, I don't even know if I can call it an obsession, but her love for Mister Hall. Did I say that name right?

Mark: Doctor Hume?

Joelle: Hume, yes! Her, she has such a fascination with him and I love it because I also like emotionally unavailable guys who are never really expressing anything about themselves, and I like the idea of her-- because you have to think about, and a lot of people brought it up in the YouTube comment section, which I always read

Nay: Ooof

Joelle: They were talking about, "I don't understand why Paul is so pissed at her mother." Now there are a lot of reasons for Paul to be upset with her mother

Michael: Yes

Joelle: But, if you look at the four parents, they have an opportunity to kill, if they wanted to kill anyone, Paul's mom seems a very strange choice

Nay: True

Joelle: I'm gunning for that dad of hers!

Nay: Okay?

Michael: I took it as, she has no idea that he was the one that kind of started the rift between the families?

Joelle: But why is that? Because he doesn't ever give her anything to go off of, of like, "I'm encouraging you."?

Michael: And she called him like, "Dad," right?

Joelle: She does!

Michael: Yeah

Joelle: So the way I'm seeing it is, the dad part is so much more about Juliet and her desire just to be her sister. She needs those to be her parents, so she can be Juliet's sister.

Michael: Right

Joelle: Also, those guys are wealthy and they don't embarrass her as much as her parents, who y'know, so…

Michael: I was just gonna say, the wealth had an aspect too, with the trips and everything, yeah

Joelle: Also there's so much shame about being poor

Mark: Oh, completely. But the Humes also encourage Paul to dream. They encourage her to dream. Like when they talk about, you know, De-bor-ah's gonna have a baby, and you know, Doctor Slutty-mom is like...

Michael: Especially Mrs. Hume, I think, too

Mark: "Aren't you clever?" or whatever. She actually praises her, she praises...

Michael: Talking to her about her stories

Mark: I'm sorry….

Nay: Because sluts are supportive! They're like, "Dream, girl!"

Joelle: "Just don't interrupt my sex in order to have problems!"

Nay: Yeah

Joelle: Which is definitely her reason for going out of the country. She was like, "Yeah, your dad's gonna be busy with the lecture and I can just swing around Europe and get me some."

Michael: Get it!

Joelle: Ugh. Gosh, what a mess. I just really...

Michael: Doctor Hume dick, fuck that

Mark: I mean, the egg-and-salmon sandwich was ripe from the top, that really tells you everything you need to know

Nay: The old-ass sandwiches

Mark: Yeah

Nay: Oh God

Michael: That he puts back in his pocket

Nay: (disgusted) No! I hated that part

Mark: (quietly) Woof

Joelle: Also the idea of multiple names was really fascinating

Michael: So many names!

Mark: Gina...

Joelle: She's Gina, she's Paul, but she's also Yolanda?

Michael: Yvonne

Joelle: Yvonne, it started with a "Y"

Nay: She acted out the most as Gina, didn't she?

Michael: Was she Charlie at some point?

Mark: Gina is definitely…

Nay: I feel like, "Damn, Gina." Like she was not…

Joelle: "My name is not Gina!" I was like, "Oh, okay girl. We got…"

Michael: It was De-bor-ah and…

Brennan: Charles

Michael: Charles

Joelle: Charles was the prince guy? Sorry, I wrote it all down. Yeah, so De-bor-ah and Charles were married, and then they had baby Dielo, which, wow

Michael: Dielo

Mark: Who grew up real fast?

Michael: And who was Charles when she liked Nicholas, who was John?

Joelle: Yeah

Mark: Yeah

Michael: Did she have a name that she used then?

Joelle: No

Michael: Was she just Paul?

Joelle: John was calling her by her middle...

Michael: Was he calling her Yvonne?

Joelle: Yeah. He only referred to her as Yvonne

Michael: And then she called him John and Nicholas

Joelle: Yeah. "I like Nicholas better." I was like, that's a boss move. "I don't like your name, I'm changing it now. Deal with it."

Michael: So great

Nay: Sounds like a lot of people these days

Mark: I just love this movie because this movie has so much compassion for these young women who find their power in fantasy

Nay: Yes

Mark: That's, it's like they have no other avenue through which to grab their power. They have to be creative, they have to escape into fantasy worlds because like that fucking travelogue that opens the movie, everything in Christchurch, everything about their lives whether they're rich or poor is so regimented and so straight and narrow that they have no choice but to escape into this world, and if they are going to have any secrets, are going to have any interior life, though it ends really badly, I just love that this movie cares about them

Michael: Well they're so strong, too, 'cause I feel like they're never hiding it either

Mark: No!

Michael: They're out front-and-center. The hand-holding in the car, being who they are. They never have any angst about what's going on between the two of them

Mark: Oh. Borovnia seems bonkers from the beginning

Michael: Right! But they don't seem scared of who they are as people, and all the shittiness created for them is created by the adults in their lives

Joelle: It's true

Michael: The adults literally are like, "Just go write your book, we'll leave you alone. Come down for dinner," everything would've been great

Nay: Yeah

Joelle: Yeah. "Don't act up. Don't pursue your dreams. Please don't fall in love with this girl." Yeah, and the moment where, for a minute Paul forgets about Juliet when she's kind of having her thing with John, and she doesn't write back for the first time while Juliet's in the hospital. And it still…

Mark: She gets to look

Joelle: There's this stunning moment where Juliet is like, you know, "Is he the reason that you didn't write me?" As a fourteen-year-old, I would never have the courage to ask. I would never have had the courage to ask. They are so open and available to one another, and I think every time we get to that final cue card where it's like, (deep narrator's voice) "As a condition of their being together is that they can never talk to each other again." I'm like, "Did they break it?!" 'Cause I would have. The minute I could find a phone number, I'd be like, "Come back to me. What's going on here?"

Michael: "What are you gonna do?"

Joelle: Oh my God.

Michael: "Go to France."

Joelle: "Let's just go to another country. How could they possibly enforce this?"

Michael: Right!

Joelle: Where do they send her, Puerto Rico? Well go down to Colombia or something, it's warm, you'll be fine, your health will be okay, whatever. The fact that they're not together and I know it's awful because they actually murdered a person

Mark: I love that they killed someone and you're like, "I want them to end up together!"

Joelle: I spend way too much time with murderers and it really bothers me. I'm watching Hannibal like, "Yes, you…"

Michael: Kate (Winslet) kind of has Hugh Grant's haircut in Heavenly Creatures

Mark: She does a little bit. Look, Brennan talked about Bridget Jones's Diary, this is Pauline Parker's Diary

Michael: I mean, it's so great

Brennan: It is! And it starts with a New Year's resolution just like Bridget Jones

Joelle: Sure does

Nay: And don't give a young girl a journal every year if you don't want her to be...

Michael: Writing

Nay: Gay

Joelle: If my mom thought that would be a trigger, I never would have gotten one. Amazing!

Michael: If you don't want your kid to be a gay writer, don't give her a journal

Nay: Yeah, come on!

Mark: Lesson learned

Joelle: This is such a fun room, I really like it here! I want to come back

Nay: Hell yeah

Mark: Well, that's why you need to come back for Don't Deliver Us From Evil

Michael: You have to come back

Joelle: Literally any time, guys

Joelle: Films are politics. You can't separate them, and if you try, you will die

Mark: I also wanna do a footnote that I am calls Pajaiba "Pajiba" in my intro years old

Joelle: That's okay. Nobody knows how to say it. It sounds like "vagina", you just have to embrace it

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Episode 22: ”I Had a Plastic Yeast Infection” (w/ Matt McConkey & Dave Holmes!)