Episode 35: "Who is for What?"

''In this episode, where we’re once again re-joined by co-host Sam Wineman, we’re discussing a sequel that might just be even more queer than THAT entry, A NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET 3: DREAM WARRIORS! This is another one of THOSE episodes. We talk about the movie a lot more than our Witchboard episode, but a lot of time is devoted to a discussion of art, who owns it, and what media spaces belong to the queers. Plus, in Tea Time we sip on SCREAM 2, NEAR DARK, JENNIFER’S BODY, and TALES OF THE CITY.''

Trivia
Michael: "This week we are comin' at ya from the best place to take a nap: shitty chairs in a very uninviting room that for some reason is used for teenage group therapy." Ernie the sound guy gets asked a question, but we don't hear his answer.

Tea Time
Sam: Double feature of Near Dark and Jennifer's Body

Brennan: Tales of the City (1993)

Shady Summaries
Nay: I love it. The end. (laughs)

Michael: That's a great summary

Nay: It is, I mean, I said it to somebody before we recorded, that I forgot it's one of my comfort movies

Michael: Mmm-hmm. You said it to me

Nay: Oh, well, yeah

Michael: You said it was like Cheese Whiz

Nay: Yeah, it was like Cheese Whiz!

Michael: And I tied that in with Carrie 2, because she says (as a snobby white girl) "You're caviar and she's Cheese Whiz!" Anyway

Nay: Yeah, it is. Put it on a cracker

Michael: Yeah, on a Ritz?

Nay: So good

Michael: I love it

Sam: Conversion therapy: Brought to you by Hypnocil

Michael: Mine is not similar, but it's on the same line where mine is, "Doctor Sims hates queer youth to death."

Brennan: Oh! So true

Sam: (chuckling) Dark

Michael: Not to laugh, but...

Brennan: So, I was thinking. It's been about five weeks since Mark left the show

Michael: Uh-huh

Brennan: And he used to do songs as his Shady Summaries

Nay: Oh yeah, that's right

Brennan: And it's been about seven weeks since we lost Crazy Ex-girlfriend, so I thought I would re-write the first season theme song to Crazy Ex-girlfriend

Nay: I am living!

Michael: Oh, wow! Are you gonna sing right now? Do you not want us to look at you? You look really nervous

Brennan: (pretends to hyperventilate) I'm sweating. No, no. I can do it, I can do it. I'm gonna breathe through it

Michael: You got it!

Brennan: We're gonna see how it goes and if it's a disaster

(To the tune of the first season theme for Crazy Ex-girlfriend)

I was working hard

at a state grad school

to avoid my dreams

One day teens were dying a lot

And so I decided to move to…

Westin Sanitarium!

With a brand-new group,

A new career

There happens to be a hot doctor,

But that's not why I'm here!

I'm (pre-recorded Brennan) the Final Girl!

Nancy Thompson!

(Pre-recorded Brennan) The Final Girl!

Here to save the day

No way I'm gonna die!

N-a-n-c-y, (pre-recorded Brennan) the Final Girl

Nay: Wow!

Michael: You just dueted with yourself, you gay boy!

Nay: Right!

Brennan: I know. Rep time!

Michael: Sam, his mouth's agape

Sam: I am floored

Michael: My cheeks are hurting from laughing

Nay: Boner alert

Michael: My cheeks hurt!

Brennan: I feel like my hands have fallen asleep

Michael: (laughs) Because you're post-nervous?

Brennan: This is like my debut

Michael: Yeah

Pride Float
Michael: Pride Float?

Brennan: Yeah, let's do a rapid-fire Pride float

Michael: (to Nay) Does it get a Pride float?

Nay: No

Brennan: Michael?

Michael: I'm gonna go, it doesn't get a Pride float, but it is a sponsor of the Pride parade

Brennan: All right

Nay: Yeah, it made money, so. Yeah

Brennan: Sam?

Sam: No. But I love it

Michael: I love it too. It's so great, it's so cute

Brennan: Yeah, no. I love this movie, too, but I'm glad we're all agreeing 'cause I'm also a "No". But call me for Elm Street 4, because I have some thoughts

Michael: Oooh!

Quotes
Brennan: Full disclosure, this is the second episode of a double recording, which as you know, results in some of our most punch-drunk and ridiculous episodes

Michael: Punchy, yeah. And Sam, your first day with us, officially as a co-host gets two episodes

Sam: Which is incredible. Incredible

Brennan: (indistinct)

Michael: (laughing) See, we're already punchy, none of us can speak!

Sam: But it's great, because it means if I really fuck up, you guys won't know for like three weeks

Michael: Yeah. When will this air? Two weeks from today?

Brennan: The twenty-third

Michael: So two weeks. (clenches teeth) The pressure's on, Sam!

Nay: I mean, we'll know by the end of this hour. We do not have to wait

Michael: I thought you did an amazing job leading the ''Carrie. The Rage: Carrie 2''

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: You Carrie-d that episode

Michael: Ohhhh. You Carrie-d us to the finish line

Sam: Well, the male is the carrier

Michael: I wish they would've done a Carrie 3, just for shots

Brennan: They did two other Carries, does that count?

Michael: I know

Brennan: I almost said, "Can you add them into one?"

Sam: I just saw a double feature of Near Dark and Jennifer's Body

Brennan: Oooh!

Sam: Changed my life

Michael: (groans orgasmically)

Sam: I've seen both of those films before, but--

Michael: I've never seen them on the big screen, including Jennifer's Body

Sam: Oh God, I saw that in theaters. And people always care about Jennifer's Body not being a thing until now? That's wrong

Brennan: Yeah!

Sam: If you-- for a lot of us, who are queer or female or both, it's been a thing

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: And for me, the soundtrack was so killer--

Michael: The movie's so awesome

Sam: It's so quotable! Like, "Is he gonna fuck his mom?" She's talking about Hamlet. It's like so--

Michael: Have you seen it, Nay?

Nay: No

Michael and Sam: (gasping)

Michael: We're doing that with Chelsea (Stardust) and I can't wait!

Nay: I know

Sam: And seeing that in a theater, like a packed theater full of people laughing with and appreciating those jokes?

Michael: Appreciate it? Yeah. Fucking good movie

Sam: It just--

Nay: Oh wait, no, we're talking about Jennifer's Body, I thought you were talking about the first one

Sam: Near Dark

Nay: Yeah

Sam: What struck me about seeing it was just how much at its time, that how much it reflected what was happening with AIDS and getting sick and that quote, "fantasy" of flipping and having nothing left to lose, and then that whole narrative of going back

Michael: Ooof

Sam: I mean, it hit me in a different way than--

Michael: Kathryn Bigelow, right?

Sam: Yeah. Incredible

Michael: Jennifer's Body? We're gonna have Chelsea Stardust in June to talk about that

Sam: I love Chelsea

Michael: I'm so excited. I saw that movie late. I had rented it, I remember renting it from, I think Blockbuster was still around in 2009, and I remember renting it going in thinking I'd hate it, because people I know that-- the reason I didn't see it in the theater is because anyone who saw it told me it was trash. And sitting in my Studio City apartment, like barely living here for just a few months. I had no furniture. I remember sitting on the floor of my bedroom that had a mattress on the floor, that was all I had, and a TV, and watching it and fucking losing my shit. Seriously feeling like, "I think this is the gayest I've ever been in my entire life," and living for it. Yeah, so

Sam: The thing I didn't like about the screening is, the line, "You give me such a wettie," didn't get any laughs, and I was like, "Ohhh, that's so good, though!"

Nay: Wow

Michael: It's so good!

Nay: Wow

Brennan: My boyfriend and I have been watching Tales of the City. It's based on the Armistead Maupin novels, which were based off his serial column he wrote for The San Francisco Chronicle. It's basically a soap opera set in bohemian Seventies San Francisco. It stars Laura Linney as Mary-Ann Singleton--

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Sam: Queen

Brennan: Who's like, "Iowa chick movin' to town"

Michael: I think it's like the second or third version of the series, right? With her?

Brennan: Yeah, Netflix is making a new series--

Michael: Yeah

Brennan: That's coming out in June, which is why we've been catching them. But there was Tales of the City in Ninety-three, and then More Tales of the City and Further Tales of the City in Ninety-eight and 2001

Michael: Got that. Okay, I thought there was one back in the Seventies. Maybe I'm incorrect

Brennan: No. They're set in the Seventies

Michael: Okay

Brennan: But have any of you seen or read any Tales (of the City) at all?

Michael: I've seen some of the old, old, old Tales of the City

Brennan: Okay

Sam: When I was a kid, I used to watch them on HBO, like stay up late and try not to get caught. I haven't seen it since then

Brennan: Okay.

Michael: I feel like the original aired on like PBS, right?

Brennan: The original was, I believe. produced by Masterpiece (Theater) and aired in the US on PBS

Michael: Yes

Sam: It was Showtime

Nay: (laughing) I thought you said, "Master P!" I knew Ernie was like, "Master P??"

Michael: Yeah, it was part of Masterpiece Theater

Brennan: Yeah.

Michael: (hums the beat to "(×)"

Brennan: Sorry to disappoint

Nay: (starts singing the rhythm to "(×)"

Brennan: I don't get why more people aren't talking about Tales of the City? 'Cause this came out in 1993. We were in a pre-Will & Grace world

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: And this is the queerest shit

Michael: Ninety-three is when Philadelphia came out, if it helps put it in context

Brennan: Yeah. Literally, I mean, this is a spoiler for the first season but it's not important

Michael: It's fine

Brennan: One of the main characters is an over-sixty trans woman, and the way that they handle her character is incredible. She's first of all, the best character in the show. Second of all, in the second season, there's a whole conversation about pronouns

Michael: Wow

Brennan: And there's just all of this stuff that is pulled from conversations that I feel like we've been having more recently, but this is happening in the early-to-mid-Nineties

Michael: That's great

Brennan: And obviously it caused a huge uproar in the Christian community, which is why the next two seasons moved to Showtime

Nay: What? But they're so chill normally

Brennan: Yeah

Michael: (mockingly) "Chill…"

Brennan: But it's outstandingly queer, and I really-- look, it gets crazy-pants in terms of the soap opera plotting of it, 'cause the first season is a very, I won't say gritty, but realistic just kind of low-key this is what life is like and we're just gonna hang out with these characters. And season two is just bugnuts. And season three… okay, I will drop a pre-season three spoiler plot point from season two. On a cruise, Laura Linney's character--

Michael: Of course

Brennan: Meets a super-handsome straight man who does not remember the three or four years he's lived in San Francisco because he has amnesia and all that they know is that he throws up whenever they see roses. And they are like trying to solve the mystery

Michael: Mmmkay

Brennan: It's, no, it's purest camp

Michael: That sounds like a network note

Brennan: And look, season two (More Tales…) you're gettin' Swoosie Kurtz in there

Michael: Oh, I love Swoosie

Brennan: Season three you're getting Sandra Oh

Michael: Oooh!

Brennan: Also, Olympia Dukakis plays Anna Madrigal, the landlady

Nay: Yes! Hell yeah

Michael: Fuck yes!

Brennan: She thinks she's in a very good show

Michael: Love it

Brennan: And occasionally she's right

Michael: (chuckles) That's such a bitchy thing to say

Nay: (chuckling) Right

Michael: I love it!

Brennan: She's stupendous. And look, you know, PBS acting, it's not always the best. But Laura Linney's great, Olympia Dukakis is so great. I'm so ready for the new series. Very excited

Nay: Can't remember the name of it, but I watched this David Attenborough nature doc

Brennan: Okay

Nay: There's lots of polar bears in it

Michael: Our Planet?

Nay: No, I don't think it was one of those with like, episodes

Michael: Oh, okay

Nay: But I was thinking about how he's been old my whole life--

Michael: Right

Nay: How old is he?

Michael: A hundred and thirty-two

Nay: But it also just made me really anxious about global warming, so that was so fun (laughs)

Michael: Is this what you watched when you got back into town?

Nay: No, this is what I watched while I was out of town

Michael: Ooof

Nay: That was a good idea, wasn't it? Yeah

Michael: (laughs) God

Sam: So pretty

Brennan: What about you, Michael?

Michael: I watched Scream 2, Brennan

Brennan: Oh my God, did you really?

Michael: Yeah. I watched Scream (1996) one night and then I watched Scream 2 the next night. Still holds up, still amazing. I love it, thank you

Sam: (feigning ignorance) I've never seen that. What's it about?

Michael: (to Sam) I'm gonna kill you (laughs) So I decided this week, I watched Scream, and then I really wanted to watch Scream 2, so I'm gonna watch Scream 3 and then I'll watch Scream 4 again

Brennan: Cool. I mean, it sounds like a plan

Michael: Yeah, I haven't actually, I don't think I've ever sat and like, done the four of them one after the other

Nay: Really?

Michael: Like one day, or day after day

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Michael: So I'm really excited 'cause

tonight's Scream 3

Brennan: Oh!

Michael: Yeah

Sam: Yes

Brennan: That's a fun movie to close out a night

Michael: Kinda. I mean, if I fall asleep during it, I'll be okay

Brennan: Yeah, look, it's a weaker entry--

Michael: It is

Brennan: But it's a cartoon and it's fun

Michael: It's Scooby-doo

Brennan: Yeah

Michael: And Scooby-doo with short bangs. But (Scream) 2 is still like, I love it so much

Nay: You do

Michael: I love Scream 2 so much, it's so good. The acting, the dialogue, the set pieces and everything, I just live for that movie. Fuckin' Laurie Metcalfe at the end, like just insanity

Brennan: Oh yeah

Michael: Those fuckin' huge eyes

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Again I picked up music cues that I've heard without the movie, but never heard them on such a good TV with the movie, and it makes such a difference. It's so great. So yeah, tonight is Scream 3, sometime this weekend is Scream 4

Nay: Yeah, it doesn't make a huge difference and this is silly, and it's not as cool as what (Michael) just brought up. But watching The Office the other day on someone's HD, like, new TV--

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Nay: I'd never watched-- 'cause you know, I watch The Office--

Michael: Yeah. All the time

Nay: On my old ass laptop

Michael: Yeah

Nay: And I saw someone's eyeshadow that I had never noticed before, and it just made a really big difference in that character

Michael: Yeah. That's the fun of going back

Nay: I was like, "Oh my God! I've watched this show through fifteen times--"

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Nay: "And never noticed any of that."

Michael: You should do-- when you watch it on your laptop, do you put headphones in or no?

Nay: Sometimes

Michael: 'Cause I have noticed watching shows and movies with headphones, you hear so much more

Nay: Well I would always have captions on. I fuckin' love captions

Michael: But sound design on headphones, with like, a big fucking television with the sound up-- Brian and I, we gifted each other, we essentially bought our first item together even though we've been together for four years, which was a 4K TV. We splurged and got a really nice one, and the first 4K move we watched on it was Close Encounters, there's a 4K copy of it now, and the sound, it's like fucking unreal how much of that movie I never heard before. Like in the sound design. It makes such a difference. It's so cool

Nay: Wow. So you and Brian are gay, huh?

Michael: Gay as fuck!

Sam: (laughing) Yeah!

Michael: And then I watched Logan, again. Blown fuckin' away watching that in 4K. And I was so resistant to getting a 4K TV because I was like, "Why are we gonna spend the money, we could spend the money on something else that we need." And pushback, pushback we get it and he puts in Logan, switches to SD after like, fifteen minutes and I was like, "Okay…" I used to be like, "There's no difference! What are you talking about?" There's a huge fucking difference and I was like, (sheepishly) "Okay, I'm eating crow."

Nay: "My favorite meal."

Brennan: "Oooh, a feather."

Nay: "My most frequent meal."

Michael: So, folks, the movie we're bringing to you today. I wouldn't say this is like a controversial pick, because it's not. But most people recognize another film in this franchise for being "the gayest of all time". But I personally feel that Nightmare on Elm Street 3 is an even gayer movie. And that's what we are covering tonight. And this movie was probably chosen off the conversation Sam and I had a month ago, about how we were undercover about how we thought Nightmare on Elm Street 3 was queerer than 2, but we didn't tell anybody. (To Sam) Do you remember this conversation?

Sam: No, tell me more about it

Nay: Yeah

Michael: And that's where wanting to do this movie genesis happened for me, so we're doing Nightmare 3

(Brennan plays part of the trailer)

KIRSTY: The man in my dreams, he's real, isn't he?

Sam: He's not

Brennan: (amused) He's not? Spoilers!

Michael: So do you guys have Shady Summaries for this or like, Lovable Summaries for this? Either or.

Nay: I mean, lovable really

Brennan: Yeah, of course!

Sam: Yeah

Michael: (to Brennan) So, did you like the movie?

Brennan: Yeah! I did. I like this movie a lot.

Sam: (to Brennan) I'm sorry, I don't think I even knew you until now. That was so revealing and--

Brennan: Honestly, this is peak me in high school, honestly

Sam: You are such a magical person

Brennan: Thank you

Michael: That was great, Brennan. I appreciate you.

Michael: Okay, a little bit on Nightmare on Elm Street: Tokyo Drift, it's written by Wes Craven and Bruce Wagner and Frank Darabont and Chuck Russell. Story by Craven and Wagner. Directed by Chuck Russell. Music by Angelo Badilamenti, who's famous for his Twin Peaks scores. Stars Heather Langenkamp, Robert Englund, John Saxon, Larry Fishburne also known as Laurence Fishburne--

Brennan: That kid's goin' places

Nay: (snaps) Right

Michael: And it was bad bitch Patricia Arquette's first film, who I love. It made forty-five million dollars at the box office

Nay: Wow

Michael: Making it the highest-grossing for the studio that year, in 1987, and the twenty-fourth highest grossing movie of the year. It is the third highest-grossing film of the original Nightmare franchise after Freddy Versus Jason and A Nightmare on Elm Street 4: The Dream Child. I have a lot more facts if you wanna start there. Sam, you had a question?

Brennan: The Dream Child's part five

Sam: Yeah

Michael: Oh, okay. The Dream Master. The Dream Master

Sam: I didn't want to say something stupid that can't be taken off the internet, so I just looked at you

Michael: I actually have it written here--

Sam: Great

Michael: I just said "The Dream Child"

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: (To Sam) I know what you were thinking

Sam: Thank you, Brennan

Michael: So I think there's some interesting stuff… have you guys ever read Wes Craven's original draft for this or heard about some of the original incarnations for this movie before it got off the ground?

Sam: No

Brennan: Wasn't one of the original story ideas New Nightmare?

Michael: It was (Wes's) first take. So after (NOES) 2 just left everybody feeling "eh" even though it had made more money than (NOES) 1 the studio kind of realized they needed to right ship and go back to the roots of the franchise even though they were only on the third movie at this point. So they actually asked Wes to come back. He was hesitant, he didn't want to do 2, he didn't want to do 3, but he came up with a pitch that was essentially New Nightmare and the studio were immediately like, "Nnno. No. Can't do that." So then he had a second idea, which was, some of the elements are in the movie which is why he has screenwriting credit and story credit. But I read this draft and it's fucking insane and it's really dark and scary and I wish they would have gone for it. But at the time, there was a lot of, just negativity-- there was a rash of teen suicides going on in America and parents weren't having it. So the studio was afraid to do like a teen-centered story fully, and Wes's original idea that he wrote with Bruce was essentially a bunch of kids going to one location for some reason they didn't know, but to kill themselves at this location. And then you spend the whole movie with Nancy and Kirsten in this script. (Kirsten) only spends like a minute in the mental hospital and she goes to this location and Nancy's not a doctor, she's not studying to be a doctor or anything, she's just trying to prove that Freddy's actually real and that he's like a flesh-and-blood person now at this point. And of course the location that these kids are going to ends up actually being Freddy's childhood home. So you spend most of the movie in his fuckin' crazy childhood home

Nay: Wow

Michael: They go into rooms and stuff, and correct me if I'm wrong somebody online, but I think they go into his rooms and see parts of his past as their nightmares and that kind of thing. It's a really trippy dark, very dark movie

Brennan: And there's fresh fennel in the kitchen

Michael: Yes! Sean Patrick Thomas throws it at Breckin Myer?

Brennan: Yeah

Michael: So, I had a lot more on it, but I don't wanna bore people to death. But… in Jeffrey Cooper's novelization called The Nightmares on Elm Street Parts 1, 2 and 3: The Continuing Story, the original Craven and Wagner version is adapted instead of the movie. So, if you can find the book

Brennan: Also Taryn can breathe fire in the book

Michael: Oh really?

Brennan: Yeah

Michael: That's really funny

Sam: She's already so cool!

Michael: Yeah! Doctor Sims's last name name in Craven's first draft was Maddalena, which was the name of his producing partner, which I think was cute

Brennan: Also, since you brought up Doctor Sims--

Sam: Bitch

Michael: I have found one more fancy fact which connects this to actually The Rage: Carrie 2, which we talked about last week. The actress who plays Doctor Sims is Amy Irving's mother [E/N: She also appeared in the original Carrie as the mom to Amy Irving's character.]

Michael: No shit!

Brennan: Yeah

Nay: Huh

Sam: Hmm

Michael: Wow. Okay

Brennan: So that happened

Michael: Interesting

Brennan: So it's a secret Amy Irving double feature

Michael: So, Nightmare on Elm Street 3. I like to call it the "Nightmare Avengers". It's like Nightmare 's version of The Avengers, right? And I think they did a really good job of adding this element of giving the kids a superpower to fight in their dream sequences, and to me it's like one of those homerun ideas: you're either gonna swing and completely fucking miss or you swing and knock it out of the park, 'cause that could go really bad really quickly. And I thought they did a good job of giving the kids a special power, and I just wanted to discuss that a little bit. Because our queeroes have a lot of cool stuff going on that they can do. Let me ask you this question: I call it "Code Gay" at Westin Hills--

Nay: Yes

Michael: That I think every single one of these kids, every single one is queer. Nancy, to me, is queer in this movie. I think she, after the death of her boyfriend in (NOES) Part One, did a lot of soul searching and realized she was a lesbian

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: I mean, Johnny Depp's character in the first movie is--

Michael: He's soft butch

Brennan: Yeah

Michael: Yeah. He is.

Brennan: He's a transitional--

Michael: Yeah

Nay: (laughs and sighs) Little emo butch

Michael: So I dunno. I kind of want to start there, because I think to me, this movie's queer from beginning to end. Because you meet Kristen right away, as she's putting together-- I think I wrote in my notes, "papier mache equals gay". She's papier macheing and putting Nancy's house together and--

Nay: (chuckles softly) That was… yeah

Michael: It's a queer movie from the get-go

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Anyone else have any thoughts about these kids 'cause I think they're all coded as queer or just are just straight-up queer

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Hmmm

Michael: Including Joey, who has the hots for the nurse

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Honestly, I think I'm gonna need some convincing on that one, because I can so get behind the idea that these characters are othered, they're ignored by their peers and their parents--

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: That's like an entryway into a queer perspective--

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: And I can definitely read a couple characters as queer, but I definitely want to hear more about how you think every character is queer, 'cause that's not a reading that I have, but I'm very interested in it

Michael: I took the reading from the way Doctor Sims just talks about what their issues are and she says all their issues. We have a clip of it if you wanna play it. It's a really long clip where it intros all the kids, so maybe it's a good place to start actually.

[Brennan plays the clip]

DOCTOR GORDON: Straight talk only in this room.

Brennan: (amused) "Straight talk only." See? Like I said, no one's gay here!

DOCTOR SIMS: I'd like to start by getting us acquainted with our new staff member, Nancy Thompson

Michael: And feel free to talk over

SIMS: And make her feel welcome

PATIENTS: Hi

GORDON: Now of course you've already met Kincaid and Gordon and of course Kristy. How 'bout the rest of you tell Nancy a little something about yourselves?

Michael: I love all their little stories

GORDON: Will, how about you first?

WILL: Hi, I'm Will Stanton and um, I had a little accident as you can see, and that's how I ended up in this chair.

TARYN: "Accident" my ass. (To Gordon) I thought you said this was supposed to be "straight talk" in here.

KINCAID: So he took a jump!

Sam: Brave man

KINCAID: (indistinct)

SIMS: Save it, Kincaid.

Michael: (sotto voce) Bitch

SIMS: Jennifer?

JENNIFER: I'm Jennifer Caulfield. And as soon as I get out of here, I'm going to Los Angeles to be an actress.

Nay: (scoffing) Yeah

Sam: Same

JENNIFER: I'm gonna be on TV

KINCAID: Yeah, "Lifestyles of the Rich and Psychotic".

JENNIFER: (To Kincaid) Screw you.

Brennan: Okay, he is reading them. You're right

Nay: Oh yeah

Michael: Yeah

JENNIFER: This is Joey. He used to be a (indistinct) in school but now he doesn't talk much

Michael: Throwing shade. Queer.

Brennan: I don't know if I wanna claim Kincaid. I don't really like Kincaid

Sam: (gasps)

Michael: I liked Kincaid by the end

Nay: Sometimes there's gays we don't like

Brennan: That's true. You're right

Nay: They there

Michael: And so it's coming up

PHILLIP: Can I just say something here to save us all some time?

Michael: (softly) No

GORDON: Sure, Phillip, go ahead

PHILLIP: Well, according to our kind hosts, our dreams are a "group psychosis", sort of a "mellow mass hysteria"

Michael: (softly) Gay

Brennan: Gay. I'm into it

PHILLIP: The fact that we were dreaming about this guy before we even met doesn't seem to impress anybody

TARYN: That's right

Michael: (softly) "We were gay (indistinct)"

PHILLIP: We go in circles, making minimal progress with maximum effort

Michael: (softly) "'Cause we're gay!"

SIMS: You won't make any progress until you recognize your dreams are what they are

Brennan: I can hear it, I can hear it in the lines

Michael: Yeah!

NANCY: What are they?

SIMS: The by-products of guilt. Psychological scars stemming from moral conflicts over sexuality

Michael: Gay conversion therapy! So yeah, the Doctor Sims line at the end there, to me, any queer-coding questions I had was answered by,  that was answered by her literally being like, "You're homosexuals." To me. Or I can read it that way

Sam: So this gets into some interesting territory for me, which is what is and isn't a queer film. And I know that you talk about it on here a lot, because you watch a lot of different things

Michael: Right

Sam: To me, this is not a queer film. But it is something that has, when you do a queer reading of it? It is a perfect fit. So I guess in that way it is

Michael: Yeah

Sam: Or you know, unintentionally or maybe intentionally if you know more than I do, but the fit of everyone having their own thing that they're trying to hold back, and they're going there to fix it. And obviously the doctor is overseeing this. Even when Nancy brings in a medication that will effectively not solve the problem but just--

Michael: Suppress it?

Sam: Suppress it

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Sam: And that's, even Nancy thinks that's the solution for a little bit

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: Until they get to a place where they can embrace who they are, discover that's not what's holding you back, but it's actually the very thing that sets you free and then have victory?

Michael: Yeah

Sam: Yeah, that is the kind of queer film I need and want and deserve!

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: We don't have enough of!

Michael: And I think that's the beauty of just having-- to be able to think on your own

Sam: Yes

Nay: Yes

Michael: Something doesn't need to register or definitely be defined as "queer" to be queer. And for me, I watch a movie like this, and some of the movies we discussed that aren't straight-up, I'm blanking on any movie that we've watched, but that aren't straight-up queer, but being able to-- like Rosemary's Baby is a good example of being able to put your life experience into Rosemary to understand what she's going through, even though her life is different than yours, having the commonality, whether it's queerness or you know, literally being a woman who's being impregnated by the Devil, you know, to me that makes it queer. Right? You know, if it's queer to you, it's queer? Kind of?

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: Sometimes a film that is not explicitly queer or intended to be queer has a better queer reading than a film that is

Michael: Exactly!

Sam: A great example would be, last week we talked about The Rage: Carrie 2. You can use explicit language--

Michael: Yeah

Sam: You can even create a moment that goes down that path but that doesn't mean it's handled responsibly

Nay: Yeah

Sam: And so, for something like this for an audience that doesn't explicitly see themselves in film? I know that for me, this was my favorite Nightmare for years

Michael: Same

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: I gravitated to these people. I wanted to be these people

Nay: Yeah

Michael: I know as a young person I didn't know why, but as an adult, I know younger me loved this movie so much because they were finding A.) who they were like you said, and B.) Strength to not only accept that, but to use it as their best asset

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Michael: Nay, what do you think?

Nay: I mean, I think when I was younger, I thought of like, sin in general as far as like the thing they're trying to avoid. And as an older person I'm like, we think about queerness and gender and all kinds of things that you're told to keep inside of these certain lines and then as a queer person or a trans person, you're like, "I do not fit in this."

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Nay: And it's like you spend a long time trying to, until you realize that it's okay that you don't

Michael: Right

Nay: And I think maybe, I guess, I wish I could remember how old I was when I first watched this. But the sin back then that I was trying to keep from doing back then was masturbating, all the time. I didn't know I was gay, but I was like, "That's the thing that I do that is a sin."

Michael: I love you, Nay

Nay: And they're like, you know, homegirl cut off her eyelids to keep from sleeping (chortles)

Michael: Right?? It's like a form of castration

Nay: Yeah. All of the things. I mean, it kind of resonates from last week with The Rage and talking about Katt Shea and things that we've done when we were younger that we were like, "Wow, that was very very gay."

Michael: (chuckling) Mmm-hmm

Nay: I know for myself I definitely just had no concept of the fact that all of these rules were made up (chuckles)

Michael: I know (chuckles) isn't that so--

Brennan: Isn't that so nice when you learn that they are made up?

Nay: Yes. Yes! I mean it's terrifying, but--

Michael: It's like when Kara was here with Rosemary's Baby and you realized, "I'm an adult in my own home and I can do whatever the fuck I want."

Nay: Yes

Michael: It's such a simple statement but it's so true

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Michael: And it's such a moment you do have at some point in your life. I know I had when I moved out here--

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Michael: And you just realize, "Wait. I don't have anyone to answer to."

Nay: I have it over and over and over again

Michael: Yeah, it's amazing

Nay: Every day, all throughout the day

Michael: It's such a great feeling, right?

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Yeah

Nay: I'll be like, "Oh, am I sittin' in this park, smokin' a joint? Yes I am." Like I didn't know that's what I was gonna want to do when I was a kid, but now that I'm grown, I'm like, "I'm doin' whatever the fuck I want, aren't I? It feels amazing."

Michael: So, Brennan, do you…?

Brennan: No, I totally get where you're coming from more than the beginning of this

Michael: Yeah! Difference of opinion's great

Brennnan: Oh yeah, no, I-- look, existing as any racial or social minority in a culture that's not geared towards your interests or life or whatever, you do have to read into the culture at large--

Nay: Right

Brennan: The mainstream culture and find yourself in it

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: That's something that we've had to do as queer people, that's something that-- you know, read almost any thinkpiece from someone who's not white talking about pop culture and finding their space in it, which first of all I recommend you do, there's a lot of very interesting ones

Michael: Our friend Joelle Monique writes several beautiful ones every month when it comes to that

Brennan: Yes!

Michael: Yeah

Brennan: And if you'll allow me a tangent really quick--

Michael: Yeah

Brennan: There is a new movie coming out in August called Blinded by the Light. It's directed by Gurinder Chadha, who directed Bride and Prejudice and Bend it Like Beckham. She is a woman of color who grew up in England, and all of her stuff is about the intersection between British culture and Indian culture

Michael: Right

Brennan: And this new movie is about, an I believe, and I don't know specifically what country he's from because I haven't seen the movie, but he's not a white person, but he's of East Asian descent and he finds a deep wellspring of love for Bruce Springsteen

Michael: Interesting

Brennan: The movie, at least according to the trailer, seems to be about how deeply he can connect with the works of Bruce Springsteen, works that weren't created for him. and the kind of clash that creates in the existing culture clash that's in his life

Michael: Oh, interesting

Brennan: And I dunno, I wanna stump for that movie 'cause I love her films so much. And anyway, go check that out. But also--

Michael: It ties into what this movie's about

Brennan: As queer people, there's definite, there's really easy insertion points-- (laughs)

Michael: For this movie?

Nay: Mmmkay

Brennan: For queer identification

Michael: Yeah

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: And I totally get that. But I also agree with Sam in the sense that like, I don't think this film was created to be queer

Michael: No, I don't think so either

Brennan: But I also don't think that doesn't mean that it's not

Michael: Right

Nay: Right

Brennan: I'm just kind of dancing on the fence--

Nay: It's like, "Ha-ha!"

Brennan: It's like, "Yeah, we got this one! We stole it from you!"

Nay: (sing-song voice) "Sorry!" (laughs)

Sam: This, I feel like it's a conversation I've been getting in on Twitter especially again and again, which is what belongs to us and what doesn't belong to us. And the second that-- and I hear your hesitance Brennan, and I understand it and I feel for it, because a lot of times I feel like I don't want to say something is queer, especially when I know it wasn't created to be that way. But for me personally, it's because there's always so much backlash to say, "Well, this is ours. And what does that mean?"

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Sam: When you look at a film that is, like Near Dark, which is directed by Katherine Bigelow. We know that she is a female director and you can't dispute that. When we're looking at something like Nightmare on Elm Street 3, okay, well, whose is it? Or Hellraiser, you know, and all the news that came forward about that, and who is going to be in charge of this franchise. What is the direction that the new Chucky is going to be now that it is in the hands of straight people?

Nay: ''Right. Right''.

Sam: And, do we have ownership over that? And that's where that conversation to me gets a little bit murkier

Michael: Well I think that's why we find ourselves putting queerness on things that weren't intended to be queer, because we don't have a lot else out there, you know?

Brennan: Especially in 1987

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Michael: Yeah. And honestly I think for me, as a creative person, I'm a writer. If I wrote something that wasn't explicitly queer and a queer person identified with it? Then that's great, you know what I mean? I bet if the filmmakers, you know if Wes Craven was around today and he was sittin' here with us and we were telling him Nightmare on Elm Street 3 was like a seminal queer film for me, he'd be like, "That's amazing!"

Sam: Yeah

Michael: "I didn't intend it to be that way, but I'm so glad you found yourself in the film," you know? And I think that's the good thing about hurt, you know?

Nay: Yesss

Michael: And I don't do that with a lot of stuff, I don't take it lightly and queer anything I see up and go, "Oh, that's queer, i can make it queer. I'm gonna make this queer, that's my goal today." But I think, for me, it's okay to do that, but for me it's like I identify Nightmare 3 as a queer movie because I think it's super queer, and I have reasons that I think it's queer and I can state those reasons as opposed to just being like, "It's queer!" You know?

Brennan: Yeah! And… I mean, this stems from a much larger point for me about who art belongs to

Michael: Right

Brennan: How much the--

Michael: Artists or the people?

Brennan: Yeah. How much the intention of the artist matters in the long run, because once the artist has departed the work--

Michael: The work's still there

Brennan: The audience is as important if not more important than the artist. And that could be a really challenging discussion to have, like just as an appreciatior of art

Michael: Well, like just how we talked about with Carrie 2, the view of that movie can change over the course of twenty years

Sam: Well, also who an audience is. For me, Nightmare on Elm Street is such a dudebro thing. I love it, I'm here for it, I'm so into it. I know that that's who that movie belongs to. Just like I know Hello Mary Lou belongs to us

Nay: Yaaaaaas!

Michael: Yeaaaah!

Sam: But when I'm looking at it, when you actually look at the film, why isn't-- I mean, Nightmare on Elm Street 3 fits us way better than Hello Mary Lou when you think thematically and story-wise and actually giving us something to aspire to be. So why is it then that we give it to them and then we'll take this one over here. Is it just having a female in the front? There are strong women in this movie

Michael: Well I think it depends on what the reaction is when it comes out, probably as well. But the other thing is, why can't we just fuckin' share?

Brennan: Oh yeah. No--

Sam: Oh, absolutely

Michael: Right? And that wasn't intended towards you, that was just intended in general

Brennan: Well, one thing I was gonna say is that you seeing yourself in this movie makes it fucking queer

Michael: Exactly. Exactly

Brennan: That is true. It doesn't matter what anybody else takes from it or gave into it, that is your truth

Michael: (laughs) It's my truth. Nightmare 3 truth

Brennan: That is a truth, and that's how art fucking works

Michael: Yeah. That's the beauty of art

Brennan: But I mean that obviously… the conversation of, "What is art?" is something that people have been talking about literally forever

Michael: Right

Brennan: And that's something interesting. But also to Sam's point, I mean, hasn't there been a kind of disappointing history of, especially gay men, rejecting works that are explicitly queer in favor of things where they can kind of see themselves through the mirror of a female? Because it's a more distancing aspect

Sam: Tell me more. Like what?

Brennan: I mean, I dunno, there's a lot of thinkpieces about it I have read and wish I could spring them all from memory exactly

Michael: Do you mean from internalized homophobia?

Sam: Mmmm

Brennan: Yeah, in terms of like, if we're looking at it like a gay male pop artist, we don't tend to, as a massive generalized group, we don't tend to lift those people up as much as we lift up your Madonnas or your Britney Spears or people who are not queer people--

Sam: I feel personally attacked

Brennan: I think it's a thing-- look, I love me some divas, but I think it's a thing--

Michael: Show title (chuckles)

Brennan: Where we do still have so little representation that when there is something or someone out there that is like, "I'm not a queer person," or in terms of-- I'm speaking as a cis gay man, someone out here is saying, "I'm a gay man," if you don't feel directly, distinctly represented by that person, you kind of push it away

Sam: Mmmmm

Brennan: And when it is something that's more outrageous or like a woman who is taking her love and interest in men to an extreme, you can relate to that because it's through a prism. It's not you looking directly at someone and being like, "You are not me, and I dunno, I need to have a me here," if that makes sense?

Michael: Yeah, it does

Brennan: I dunno. Is that something?

Michael: (laughing) "Is that something?" Nay, what do you think?

Nay: Um, I think we can take whatever we want to take

Brennan: Hell yeah

Michael: Love it

Nay: And it's not that it's that the conversation shouldn't happen or that we can't have, you know, we can't talk about, actually, no fuck you. No one has to explain why a movie resonates with them or why they feel that they can easily queer something in it, because the thing is, there is no harm in that

Michael: Right!

Brennan: True

Nay: It's like the harm comes from being excluded. The harm comes from things not being created for you, things not being created with you in mind, things not, you know, being created for your benefit. And it's like, sure we can argue or people can argue with someone. Or if like the dude bros that love Elm Street wanna be like, "Well, this isn't for you," well of course you feel that way. You feel that way about everything. You get to decide what is for who and who is for what all of the fucking time, so--

Michael: Right. And also, "Fuck you." Who cares if I like it?

Nay: Yeah. Are you worried that you're a little gay 'cause we like the same movies?

Michael: Exactly. Yeah!

Nay: You know? "Oh, this is your favorite movie, too? Maybe we should watch it together with our dicks out."

Michael: Yeah. "Shirtless. Touchin' tips." (laughs)

Nay: Yeah (laughs) It's like, have you seen that gif on Instagram--

Michael: Is that touchin'? I hope

Nay: That you can use, from Nightmare on Elm Street?

Michael: No!

Nay: That's like the butts touching?

Michael: No!

Sam: Oh yeah

Nay: Yeah. It's (chuckles) I'm like--

Michael: Where did you find that Nightmare 3 gif that you posted today?

Nay: On Twitter?

Michael: Because I fuckin' loved that

Brennan: That was beautiful

Michael: Right? I've never seen that before

Nay: Twitter

Michael: It was just a Twitter search?

Nay: Yeah. You know I'm tryin' to learn Twitter and I don't know nothin'

Michael: You're getting really good at it

Nay: But I'm tryin' to learn. Yeah, take it.

Michael: Yeah. It's no harm.

Nay: Take it. People are upset because they are used to making the rules and they are used to making the boundaries and the lines and, you know?

Michael: Well, it's like those people that protest against queer rights--

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Michael: Who for some reason get so fuckin' pissed, it's almost like me having equal protection makes them feel like they're losing something

Nay: Mmm-hmm. Because they're telling on themselves!

Michael: Which is a fucking crazy--

Brennan: Yeah

Sam: Yes

Nay: They're telling on themselves

Michael: They are!

Nay: It's like, you know, when Obama was President and people were like, "Well this is really scary for us because is this Black man gonna keep Black people in mind before everyone else?" And it's like, "Oh, is that what y'all do?"

Michael: (laughs) Right!

Nay: "Are you saying that that's something that one might do?"

Michael: Yeah

Nay: "Because if that's what you're admitting, you won't admit that you are doing that also. You're just fucking racist."

Michael: Right!

Nay: If you think that anyone isn't putting certain things or their own self-interest first, like that's just being a human being

Michael: Right. Yeah, it is just like mass telling on yourself

Nay: Yeah, you're telling on yourself

Michael: When people are like, "I don't want you to have the same protections I have," well, that doesn't harm you. So you're either just admitting you're a homophobe or a fucking idiot

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Take your pick. You're probably both

Nay: Mmm-hmm!

Michael: So, yeah. It's just that's the thing I've found mostly in the last year or two, especially on social media is just a lot of people telling on themselves--

Nay: Oh yeah

Michael: Unintentionally

Nay: Oh yeah

Sam: Yeah. Yep

Michael: (laughs) They sure do, right?

Sam: They sure do

Sam: If I can specifically reference--

Michael: Yeah! Please!

Sam: We've been having an ongoing conversation about Hellraiser and I know that my opinion is not popular, necessarily, even within the gay community. But I do feel that a movie that was helmed by a queer filmmaker; we have tons of things that have been written by us, but this is a very big series, and we don't have a lot like that

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: So when it gets removed from us, I feel like it's being straightwashed into this--

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: Without having read the script, without not knowing where it's going, but knowing whose hands it's going into--

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: I feel like it's okay to speak up and say, "Hey."

Nay: Yeah

Michael: It's okay to question, yeah

Nay: Yes

Sam: I want to say something. And I want to demand the change that I wanna see. And I'm not expecting there to be a change, but if we don't keep asking for it, they're never gonna give it to us

Nay: Exactly! Exactly

Sam: And if you didn't like the way I said it, sorry not sorry, because I would try it the other way, but everybody else has been trying it the other way and nothing's changed.

Nay: Also guess what. Queer people die for this shit

Sam: (sighs) A-fucking-men

Michael: That's the thing. No one's fucking gotten anywhere with being polite their whole goddamn life

Nay: Yeah

Sam: Polite things don't get retweets

Michael: And Nay, I'm still thinking about what you just said. Like, oooof

Nay: They won't give you anything

Michael: Like people do die for this

Nay: People die for that shit. It's like, you know, when talk about cultural appropriation comes up or people are like, "What's the big deal?" And it's like, "You do realize that I'm not mad about your cornrows. I'm not mad about your hairstyle or that you like, you know, gelled down your baby hairs,"--

Michael: 'Cause you're at fucking Coachella

Nay: Yeah. Like, that's not it. The point is that when I do that, I don't advance for that. I'm seen as "hood" for that, or like, I'm seen as "less than" and you're allowed to do this and maintain your integrity and your genius

Michael: Yeah, it's not your "Coachella look"

Nay: Yeah, no, it's not the fact that you braided your hair. Like, I get it, you wanna braid your fuckin' hair, but it's the fact that, along with this, you're allowed to act all kinds of ways

Michael: Mmm-hmm!

Nay: You are allowed to speak to me a certain way, you are allowed to do this and still move on in your life that I'm not allowed to. Literally there are many states in which I can get not hired for a job due to my hairstyle

Michael: Right

Nay: It's not the same thing. No one is mad about your Baby Phat velour sweatsuit. That's not what it is.

Michael: I always-- when I was on Instagram, I'd always not say laugh, 'cause it's not funny, but every year around Coachella, I'd be like, "Okay, what gays are gonna tell on themselves this year by having their hair done in braids?" 'Cause there was always one white gay boy that would post like, "Got my hair done for Coachella!" And it's like, "Dude. Really?"

Nay: (chortles) Yeah

Michael: "You have no idea that this is not the look?" But it was always a white guy named Drake or something

Nay: (to Michael) You're stupid (laughs)

Michael: But it was always just like-- in a lot of ways it's like, "Keep tellin' on yourselves, people."

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: That's also how I feel about the fact that a lot of queer terminology has been appropriated by straight memes and things. Like we're talking about "Yaaaaaas" and "throwing shade" and all that stuff, and to be clear, most of that stuff was created by Black queer people--

Nay: Yes

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: So we also stole it from them

Michael: Yeah!

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: It's a whole vicious, heinous cycle, but I definitely don't want the straights to have it either

Nay: No! They can't have it! You know why? Because if you say, "Yaaaaaas!" in a restaurant, homeboy over there might be like, "That fuckin' faggot over there is dying later."

Brennan: Yep

Nay: Like, we die for these things

Brennan: That's so-- yeah!

Nay: And that's why it's ours. Like, I, yeah. It's ours, y'know?

Brennan: No, there are--

Sam: Yeah

Michael: It pisses me off when anybody says like, "Why does it have to, why do we have to do identity politics?" It's like, "Because you fuckin' make my identity political just 'cause you feel like it."

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: Yeah. Just existing is a political statement

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Yeah. "Just existing is a political statement to you. So yeah. That's why we do have identity politics, you fuckin' prick."

Sam: Or when it's like, "Can't there just be a filmmaker and not a queer filmmaker?"

Michael: Right

Nay: No.

Sam: "Just let them be an artist."

Nay: No.

Sam: No.

Nay: No. Because being queer is what makes them a great artist, and you, by saying that, you are saying that just being an artist or just being a filmmaker is the standard, and when someone is queer, or someone is Black or someone is a woman, that that deviates from the norm--

Michael: Exactly

Nay: And although we know it's a deviation from the norm, because we know who normally does this shit--

Michael: Well, we know what filmmaker means: "white male"

Nay: Yeah

Michael: That's what that means. You know what I mean?

Nay: Yeah. But it's like, this is why it's fucking important to me, because these words, these things that make my existence political, these things that throw all these glass ceilings above my head, we fight for it, we die for it

Michael: Yeah

Brennan: That is really true. I mean, look. I constantly want to recognize and acknowledge the fact that I am a cis white man and that comes with a lot of privilege. But also, as an out gay person there are, I mean, there are fewer spaces where, you know, I can hide my minority status

or oppressed status or whatever, and that's all fine and dandy. But there are literally places where you can get killed for being who you are

Nay: Oh yeah

Brennan: There are places where you don't get to exist

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: My boyfriend and I were on a road trip, and we stopped at a motel and we got a room with a single bed. And the lady who was checking us in was like, she just thought we were poor college students--

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: And she's like, "Oh, don't worry, I'll upgrade you to a room with two beds!" And it's like, "No. We don't…"

Nay: "Good. We'll fuck on both of 'em."

Sam: Yeah! (laughs)

Michael: "Can you put them together, bitch?" (laughs)

Brennan: I mean, spoiler alert, we took the bigger room--

Nay: Yeah!

Michael: I hope you fucked loud all weekend

Nay: (annoyed) Okay. Jesus Christ

Brennan: I don't fuck and tell, Michael, but it was only one of the beds. We put our stuff on the other one

Nay: You have to set the equipment out, you know? I need room.

Michael: (laughter)

Nay: Michael's leg is in the air

Brennan: Oh my God. My parents listen to this, but look--

Nay: Do they really?

Brennan: Yeah.

Nay: Awwww!

Michael: (sighs) Oh, okay

Brennan: Shout-out to them, they're the best

Michael: We can edit this out

Brennan: No, it's fine

Nay: Brennan's parents!

Brennan: I am twenty-four years old

Michael: Yeah. Hi, Kleins!

Brennan: They know. We haven't talked about it, but they know

Michael: Okay

Nay: I'm dying! That's so cute!

Brennan: Oh yeah, my Mom and Dad will text me and be like, "Oh, I really liked that episode!"

Nay: Oh. My. God!

Michael: That's really cool!

Nay: I hope my Mom never learns what a podcast is

Michael: Honestly, same

Nay: None of you better fuckin' tell her

Brennan: No, my parents are super-hip and cool and they know how to download podcasts and they listen in their cars. It's very fancy

Michael: Well, hello. Klein family

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: But anyway, this check-in lady, it literally never crossed her mind that a person could be gay

Nay: (amused) Yes!

Brennan: It's just not something that occurred to her

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: And obviously, I mean I did feel a little tense--

Michael: It's a microaggression

Brennan: Or unsafe in that situation--

Nay: Of course

Brennan: Where it's like, "If she found out? Who would she tell?"

Nay: Right, right

Brennan: "How would she react to it? Would we be kicked out of this space?"

Nay and Michael: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: And obviously that wasn't like a dangerous situation, but it was a complete erasure

Nay: It still fills you with feeling

Brennan: Yeah

Nay: It's like, I find myself in those moments a lot with my own family where it's like they've made an assumption that you know, circles back around to whatever norm that they're used to, and it's like, "(sighs) Do I not say anything and let this moment pass and you leave me the fuck alone and you assume that it's not affecting my pocket so whatever." Or, because I'm so tired of that erasure, and for a lot of folks who are able to live away from their birth families, you live your life and fight every day to be who you are and  it's hard sometimes to go back and be like, "Okay, I'm hiding again." But, that is dangerous. I feel sometimes people think, and this goes for a lot of microaggressions, it's like, "Oh, someone didn't die, then it's not dangerous."

Brennan: It's like the Roxane Gay thing you were talking about--

Nay: Yes

Brennan: Where it could be worse

Nay: It could be worse. It's like, "Yeah, it could. It will be in my community. And maybe you think it's funny that you think that these two women who are in wedding dresses are best friends, but it's not fucking funny. And they're fuckin' later. Fucking wives, okay?"

Sam: To circle back to the horror community and how this affects us, I feel like that's such a good point, because it doesn't have to be death to have an effect

Nay: Yeah

Sam: I mean, people do fucking die

Nay: Yeah

Sam: I don't wanna-- and I don't have to drive out of state, even though that is such a good example and I totally have fucking been there. To experience--

Brennan: Also, that was in California. For the record

Sam: (chuckles) Oh my God

Nay: Central Cali?

Brennan: Northern California

Sam: Santa Ana, just down there

Michael: Riverside

Sam: But you know, it could be anywhere and that's the point

Nay: Yeah. Absolutely

Sam: For me, in this industry, something I've noticed that infuriates me, and also I have so much sympathy or empathy for is making ourselves meeker so that we can fit into a larger film culture

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: So, I feel like, and a lot of my queer friends, we sand off our edges when it comes to our opinions about films--

Brennan: Yeah!

Sam: Because I don't wanna not please somebody because it's already so fucking hard being gay and trying to have a voice

Michael: Right

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: Or, "Yeah, I guess that's okay. I don't need that main character to be gay." I had something that got pretty far and then the decision was made to make the fourth character, "You can make the fourth character down gay." And it's like the reaction like, "You're right! That's still representation."

Brennan: That's telling you what you're worth

Sam: Yes. I think at the end of the day, what am I doing if I'm just saying, "Yeah, that'll do for now," other than sanding off all my edges? I wanna have some edge. Something.

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Michael: Well, and politeness doesn't-- that person that said that to you, by being polite to them, they don't learn shit.

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Michael: They tell that to the next person they see that puts the gay character first or second--

Nay: Yeah

Michael: So this is just going back to your point, if you presented a little bit rough per se, like you said, on Twitter or whatever? Good.

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Because not telling Mister Executive, I mean I can't think of anything else to say other than, "Go fuck yourself," right now, but he's gonna tell you, the next person, "Make your gay character four or five." And then the list, it might go further down the list every time, unless you say, unless somebody says something--

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Michael: And the intentions may not be bad, but at the end of the day, he still doesn't know shit

Nay: Yeah, impact

Michael: Yeah

Sam: When a new movie comes out and we see that side character who's gay, more often than not, we're not gonna say anything about how it's not enough, or how it was wrong. We just don't. And that's actually why I was nervous about joining the podcast, 'cause I'm like, "Ah, shit! Am I gonna get...? I don't wanna like--"

Brennan: Alienate

Sam: Well, one, I mean, out myself as being someone who's really unhappy with the current state of representation, and two, you know, step on some polite toes, because you guys are so nice. (chuckles) But at the end of the day, there's so much fucking work to be done

Michael: "Just be thankful someone listens!" (laughs)

Nay: (annoyed) Michael… That's not true!

Michael: It's not true. We have a good, loyal following

Nay: Yeah. They're the best

Michael: People from all over the world

Brennan: And look, people actually tweet at us, and you guys do not understand how little that happens in the podcasting world. Thank you everyone so much for actually commenting on the episodes, and--

Michael: Yeah, we really love our audience.

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Michael: And I wasn't making a joke at our audience, I was making a joke at myself

Nay: Michael, yeah, we know

Michael: Yeah

Brennan: "You're no one!"

Michael: So back to Nightmare 3

Brennan: Oh yeah!

Michael: I love when we get in those kind of conversations from based on watching a movie. But there's a few things I wanted to talk--

Brennan: Yeah yeah

Michael: Because we should actually wrap it up soon. One, this was the introduction to "High-budget Kill Freddy". And also, comedian Freddy

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Michael: Two of the bigger hallmarks of the series from this point on started in this film, and I kind of wanted to discuss both, because I think they're both handled with a very deft hand here, where, and it might be because it is the first of the genre where the kills are a little outrageous--

Nay: Oh. My. God.

Michael: But that fuckin' mouth that's eatin' Patricia Arquette--

Nay: Yes!

Michael: Which is clearly an automatron, it's so amazing

Nay: Oh. It's amazing

Brennan: The big Freddy dong?

Michael: Yeah. The TV kill, like, all that stuff. Do you appreciate upgrade Freddy here?

Nay: Yes

Michael: Because it does go along with the rest of the movie, which is upgrading the characters' strengths, our protagonists essentially having superpowers and banding together, so Freddy had to be up, too--

Nay: Mmm-hmm!

Michael: In order to either a.) defeat them, or make it a challenge

Nay: Freddy had to step his pussy up, y'know?

Michael: Yeah! (laughs)

Sam: Yaaas!

Michael: And do you, my question to you is, do you think the kills and the comedy in this film were a.) good or bad and b.) were they the beginning of the end of serious Nightmare on Elm Street? Loaded question. Ernie? (chuckles) Nay, what do you think?

Nay: You know, I was thinking when I was watching it, I was like, I don't care what someone's sign is. What's your favorite kill in this movie?

Michael: Ooooh! Good question!

Nay: That's what I wanna know. Yeah. And so I, definitely when I was younger, I didn't think the deaths were funny. Like they're funny now, but--

Michael: Oh no

Brennan: Well, this movie has a nasty streak

Nay: Yeah, this shit is nuts

Michael: I only find the deaths funny in the sense that I laugh as a protection mechanism

Nay: Yeah!

Michael: Because watching it this time, some of them freaked me out. Like Phil's death?

Nay: Whoa

Michael: That ligament shit? I literally was cringing last night. I'm like, "This is hard to watch."

Nay: The puppet?

Michael: It was painful

Sam: Okay, "Welcome to prime time, bitch," though. That's a good laugh

Michael: That's hilarious

Sam: That's a real funny kill

Michael: And it's a fucking good line

Nay: Oh my God, so funny. Ahhhh!

Brennan: That line is the reason Freddy became what he was for a minute

Sam: Of course

Nay: Yo! I was like--

Michael: Because it's so good, it's like chasing a high, the writers of the rest of the series up until New Nightmare were trying to match that vibe

Brennan: That's why he said, "Bitch," so many times

Michael: Uh-huh

Nay: Absolutely, because-- and also, is Freddy our catty queen?

Sam: Yes

Michael: Michael Varrati always says Freddy is just someone doing drag

Brennan: Oh yeah

Nay: Yeah. Come back, Michael. Come back Michael Varrati

Michael: Oh, soon

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: Nay, which was your favorite kill then?

Nay: I mean, I personally love to shoot tongues out of my mouth and tie someone to a bed with it. Like, that would be so amazing

Brennan: Ooooh!

Michael: (Joey) somehow survives that. I forgot--

Nay: Yeah, that's true

Michael: That he survives that

Nay: Probably the TV

Brennan: That is a good one

Michael: It is a good one. I noticed, I think the TV one's great. The ligament one's tough.

Nay: (whispers) Ugh, that fucking puppet

Michael: I feel like Taryn's, watching it now--

Brennan: That death is challenging

Michael: It's challenging, but also none of the needles actually hit her arm when you watch it close enough these days. It's like a very lazy--

Brennan: The curse of Blu-ray?

Michael: Yeah. Also, Will's death is a little lame in the sense that there's no sound effect to him getting stabbed

Brennan: Oh, Will the magician, right?

Michael: Yeah

Brennan: His whole thing's kinda lame

Sam: Yeah…

Michael: And he just gets stabbed, right?

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Nay: Yeah

Michael: And he's just dead?

Brennan: Because there's that cool Changeling wheelchair that's chasing him?

Michael: Yeah. Which is super-cool

Brennan: It's just such an anti-climactic--

Michael: It is. Like all this cool wizard power and then he just--

Brennan: Well he can't do anything with it

Michael: Yeah, he does it once and then that's it. What about you, Sam?

Sam: (sighs) The TV death. And I don't wanna just say it again--

Michael: It is the best though

Sam: And this is why. The setup for that, in the giving her permission to stay up later--

Nay: Yes

Sam: It implicates someone else in her death--

Nay: Yes

Sam: In a way that I think that, for me, the way that mental health in a psych ward setting is treated in this film is surprisingly accurate--

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: In a sea of films that get it wrong

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Michael: I mean, Carrie 2

Sam: Ohhh

Michael: Guy walking around with a fire extinguisher petting it?

Brennan: (laughing) Oh yeah!

Sam: I mean, they also had the Joker there with (Rachel's mom), so what are you gonna--? But this feels, this to me feels like the closest to an experience that I've been a part of, and so I'm like, "Okay. I get this. I feel this." And I feel like asking somebody for that extra time or that little bit of extra when you need help

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: It's your first instinct to ask for it, and they need to say no. And he didn't. And she's dead. And to me, that one had so much gravity, it was hard to watch.

Michael: And I know all their deaths kind of played into their pasts and stuff, but (Jennifer's) and Taryn's are really hard, because--

Sam: Mmmm

Michael: They really, really, Freddy does use their lives--

Sam: Yes

Michael: For Taryn it's her thing, something she was super proud of getting over, which was her addiction issues. And then for Jennifer, it's like her dream. He kills her with her fucking dream. Which is so sad! Fuck you, Freddy!

Sam: He looked at her and said, "Why don't you make the gay character fourth down?"

Michael: Oh, and also, by the way? Zsa Zsa Gabor? Gay.

Brennan: Oh yeah

Nay: Oh, yeah

Michael: Makes it gay

Nay: The words, the saying, "Zsa Zsa Gabor". That's how I knew-- when I was young I was obsessed with all the Gabors

Michael: Uh-huh. She's the one that slapped a cop, right? Zsa Zsa?

Nay: Oh, and Green Acres, I watched all that shit. and even just saying, "Zsa Zsa," if you say it five times in the mirror--

Michael: (softly) Zsa Zsa… (normal voice) she slaps you across the face like she did that cop!

Nay: Yes. Goals

Michael: (to Sam) You know she slapped a cop? It was amazing

Sam: This is all news to me

Michael: Yeah. Traffic stop

Nay: Iconic

Sam: Oh my God

Michael: Yeah, he was talking, treatin' her like shit, so she fuckin' hauled off and slapped him

Nay: Yooo

Sam: Incredible

Nay: Sounds about white

Michael: I was gonna say, it plays into what we were talking about earlier

Brennan: Yeah

Nay: Yeah

Michael: About how it's cool that she slapped him, but she was white

Nay: Yeah

Michael: So she paid a fine

Nay: You know, the last time my Mom got pulled over, which pisses me off, because she looks like this little old white woman and is like, endearing, and the cop was like, "You know you ran that stop sign?" And she was like, (disbelieving) "Did I?" And he was like, "Well, I think you did."

Brennan: Oh!

Nay: Mom, fuck you. She got out of the ticket. He was like, "Ma'am I think you ran the red light." "Oh honey, I don't know! I've lived here twenty-seven years. I know that there's a stop sign there."

Michael: Ahhhh, she's workin' that man over

Brennan: Oh my God

Nay: Yeah

Michael: So, what do you guys think, though, as far as do you think they're responsible for the shitty follow-ups after or you can't blame the quality and goodness of (Nightmare) 3 on the rest, on (Nightmare) 4, 5, and 6

Sam: Fuck you for saying that there's shitty follow-ups after. And I know that we disagree about this, but Nightmare on Elm Street 4, I love that movie

Brennan: I love that movie!

Sam: It is fucking queer

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: Yeah

Sam: I think that it is a, which is a whole other episode and not gonna go there--

Michael: I haven't seen (Nightmare) 4 in a long time

Brennan: It's literally about identity and self-actualization

Sam: So, there are plenty of other installments of this movie that are worth watching and I love that this movie, I think, is directly responsible for it. So yes, maybe I agree with you, but I disagree with your feeling about it

Michael: You don't look at it negatively

Sam: I think it birthed something beautiful. And we would not have had the New Nightmare we have now if it had been made instead

Brennan: Absolutely

Sam: The New Nightmare we got was because of what came after Part 3

Michael: Absolutely!

Sam: And I love it

Michael: I love that we got New Nightmare from Part 3. I'm not a fan of 4, 5 and 6. I haven't seen them all in awhile, but I'm not a fan of super-duper comedy Freddy.

Nay: Yeah

Michael: I think the movies are actually more fun--

Sam: You don't like (Freddy) on a broomstick circling a house?

Brennan: I love that

Michael: I'm not a huge fan of that, but bless you for trying

Brennan: Look, the seeds of that have been present in the franchise since Part 1. Think of the part in the alley when he's stretching his arms out to get Tina

Nay: Yeah

Michael: True

Brennan: Think of when he chops off his own fingers, like, "This is God!"

Michael: I guess it plays differently 'cause you haven't seen it yet, it's new and it's different

Brennan: Yeah, no. It's darker and scarier, but he's toying with his victims like a cat with a mouse

Michael: Yeah

Brennan: He pulls off his own face at one point--

Michael: True!

Brennan: And his skull is like, "Blalalalala," with his little tongue

Michael: That's true! Good call

Sam: Based on age though, this is really interesting, because for me, when I grew up, my intro to Freddy was those commercials for Nine-hundred-number Freddy--

Brennan: Oh God yeah

Sam: And the cereal, and the toy that you press the button, my friend had one

Michael: Oh my God

Sam: I knew Freddy as like a comedy icon--

Brennan: Uh-huh

Michael: Yeah

Sam: And so when I went back--

Michael: He was mainstream

Sam: Exactly. That was my entry point. So when I first saw Part 1, I was super disappointed 'cause I was like, "That's not Freddy."

Nay: Mmmmm

Sam: So for some of us, later Freddy was an entry point

Michael: Isn't it interesting? Because it's like Wes Craven would be like, "Sam, that was the first one."

Sam: And now obviously I live for Part 1

Michael: But no, I know what you mean

Sam: That was my first reaction to that, yeah

Michael: Yeah. That's why anyone that says that Scream 3 is their favorite in the franchise is because that's the first one they saw

Sam: Nobody says that, though

Michael: There's a handful

Michael: There's a lot more I wanted to talk about, but we're getting close to the end. But I do wanna play a clip about Freddy's genesis

Brennan: (disgusted) Oh God. Okay.

(Brennan plays the clip)

GORDON: What was this place?

AMANDA: Purgatory. Fashioned by the hands of men...

Nay: (softly) Oh, I love it

AMANDA: Twisted, lonely souls...

Michael: I love the music

AMANDA: The worst of the criminally insane…

Brennan: (softly) That's so gothic

AMANDA: Were locked up in here like animals

GORDON: This whole facility was shut down in the Forties, wasn't it? Some sort of scandal?

AMANDA: A young girl on the staff was accidentally locked in here over the holidays

Michael: (softly) Oh-ho

Brennan: (softly, as Mrs. Voorhees) "A young boy drowned…"

AMANDA: Inmates kept her hidden for days. She was raped. Hundreds of times. When they found her, she was barely alive. And with child. That girl was Amanda Krueger. Her child…

Michael: (softly) Freddy (chuckles)

AMANDA: The bastard son of a hundred maniacs

Michael: Such a great line, "The bastard son of a hundred maniacs."

Brennan: That is really good

Michael: So I mean, I don't really have much to say here, have a discussion, but I just felt like we needed to play that clip, because it is just such a fuckin' bonkers almost like, I don't wanna say a retcon, 'cause they're not taking away anything that Wes created in the first movie. They're just kind of taking the backstory back even further

Brennan: Mmm-hmm.

Michael: But, necessary, question mark? (chuckles)

Sam: I hate it so fucking much. And it's funny right, because I just saw it watching it for this and yet I forget that that's there.

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: Because in my head, it's like, "Boooooooooop!" on that part and that's all I hear 'cause I don't need a rape that results in a monster.

Brennan: Oh yeah

Sam: You know what happens when a woman gets impregnated by a rape? There's a baby that needs taking care of! And that's not any more of a monster-- I dunno. It's like, the creation of that being the creation of Freddy? No. I mean, I get the intention, but they're wrong.

Brennan: That's a really good point. I think the arch craziness of that line is interesting as a curio, but yeah, the actual intention behind it is really painful and rough

Michael: What do you think, Nay?

Nay: Ohhh, unfortunately I was thinking about Georgia and criminalizing abortion and--

Michael: And miscarriages at this point

Nay: And miscarriages, and how, yeah. Anyway. It took me down a really sad path

Michael: I mean, if anything, there's a way to look at this "son of a hundred maniacs" as like a pro-choice; had (Amanda) aborted that baby… no Freddy

Nay: Yeah. (chuckling) Wheee!

Brennan: Ehhhh. I will say this. In a following scene, in a scene that follows that, Nancy does say the line, "Assuming your mysterious nun is right," and that line is camp. You could wear that line to the Met Gala

Nay: Hot.

Michael: So great. "Mysterious nun."

Sam: Also, (Nancy's) look at the funeral, though. I'm sorry, I know we're wrapping up, but--

Michael: Oh, it's amazing!

Sam: Fucking serving looks left and right

Michael: It's like Joan fucking Collins

Brennan: Speaking of camp

Sam: I can't believe she had the audacity to show up in that wool cape, wrapped around, that full hat--

Michael: Oh, it's totally--

Brennan: Yeah!

Sam: Give me everything, Nancy!

Michael: The night before they designed that, the costume designer watched Dynasty, watched Dallas, Falcon Crest and the fucking Colbys: Dynasty Two or whatever the spinoff was

Nay: Yes!

Michael: Speaking of Nancy, we do need to talk about her a little bit, so we might run a little long. But her return is amazing. Right?

Brennan: Oh yeah

Michael: It's such a smart decision

Sam: Absolutely

Nay: Oh yeah

Michael: How they chose to have her character enter felt very natural--

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Michael: And it actually felt very natural to who she was previously. And I was looking for just stuff from when the movie came out, trying to find stuff, and I would have to say that she had to be a big reason why the movie was such a huge success, right? Like, financially, do you think? Do you think it had-- three years later, was Heather Langenkamp such a known name? 'Cause if you're making forty-five million dollars on a slasher movie in 1987, that's gotta be crossover appeal, that's not just horror fans going to see that movie

Brennan: Well, I don't think it's Heather Langenkamp, I think it's Nancy. And that's what Wes Craven's New Nightmare is about, it's about how Heather Langenkamp doesn't really exist in the culture, but Nancy is this huge icon

Michael: Do you think it was like Jamie Lee Curtis with Halloween (2018) last year? Do you think it had, on a less grand scale, do you think that's why people saw it?

Nay: Mmmmm

Michael: I don't know, it's just a question I've always wondered: Why it blew up in Part 3

Brennan: Well, Jamie Lee Curtis is Jamie Lee Curtis

Michael: Right

Brennan: Heather Langenkamp is not Jamie Lee Curtis

Michael: True

Brennan: I mean, she's wonderful. I wish she was

Michael: But she's only three years removed from the first film at this point, though

Brennan: I mean--

Michael: Did they tout her return, do you think? I was trying to find shit.

Nay: I don't know. Yeah.

Michael: It opened at number one, it made ten million dollars its opening weekend. Like, was it the special effects? I mean, Patricia Arquette wasn't known yet

Sam: Three years and (Heather Langenkamp) was sporting such a mom look!

Brennan: I know!

Sam: I was so into that!

Nay: When you know, you know

Michael: Heather Langenkamp? Nancy?

Sam: Oh yeah

Brennan: She would've been like, twenty-three

Sam: Yeah. She was going like, full maternal

Michael: And (Nancy) says in the movie at one point she says all her friends died six years ago

Sam: Yeah, there's a bit of a timeline jump

Michael: She's supposed to be twenty-three? Maybe twenty-four? But yeah, sporty mom look, yeah

Sam: But it we're looking at slasher franchises or even just horror franchises in general, I mean, Friday the 13th kills off our Final Girl immediately in Part 2. We do have Jamie Lee Curtis in Halloween (1978) 1 and Halloween II, but then nothing further, so I think that having a Part 3 where we thought-- especially a disappointing Part 2, where it's like, "Guy, will they ever come back?"

Michael: That's the thing--

Sam: Can you imagine when studios poured that much money, like even more money into a sequel and it actually delivered? That happened here

Michael: Well, that's the thing, because what happens is the sequel usually performs based on people's feelings of the previous film

Sam: Yeah

Michael: So people hated (Nightmare on Elm Street) 2, so for 3 to make twice as much money and be critically adored? Is pretty wild. 'Cause especially in Eighty-seven, the slasher genre was pretty much dead at that point. I mean, Jason Six, Friday the 13th Part VI had come out by then and only done fifteen million. (Friday the 13th) Part VII hadn't been released yet. But by Eighty-seven, all the franchises were kind of dead. Halloween hadn't returned yet, but it would next year and only made like eighteen million bucks. So for (NOES 3) to make forty-five million, I'm just curious. I wish I could've found something

Sam: Well, first off, people didn't hate Nightmare on Elm Street 2. Americans did, but in the UK, Nightmare on Elm Street 2 came out before Nightmare on Elm Street 1

Michael: That's what you said, yeah

Sam: Yeah. I mean, (NOES 2) wasn't universally hated and I think that depends on what your access point was, kind of like what we talked about earlier. But also, I know they bring back Nancy--

Michael: To make forty-five million domestically--

Sam: Oh, absolutely!

Michael: Off of a disappointing feeling of (NOES) 2 is huge. You think it was Freddy?

Sam: Your point is still there, I just always wanna step up and let people know, because I think that with--

Michael: You're stepping your pussy up

Sam: I am. I don't. I don't think it was Nancy, I think it was Freddy. I think we'd never gotten a Freddy before, and I think everybody looked at that and they were like, "How the fuck do we crack this?" And that's why we got Hello Mary Lou, that's why we got Leprechaun, that's why we got all these talking, terrible talking characters, a slew of them--

Michael: Freddys? Yeah.

Sam: Because Freddy's the only one that nailed it. Because Freddy is a drag queen. Freddy was doing a performance and he can do multiple characters. But nobody else quite got that magic and that's what (NOES) 3 has

Michael: And (NOES) 3 like upper the fuck out of the budget.

Sam: Yes

Michael: I think (NOES) 1 was one-and-a-half (million dollars), I think (NOES) Part 2 was maybe two (million dollars)? And then (NOES) 3 was thirteen-point-five (million dollars) I think

Sam: But I think it's the thing you're hesitant about, the Freddy factor, the thing that gives you all the other things

Michael: Well no, that's what I mean. Is it the Freddy factor, you think? It's just wild. It's really interesting when you're doing research on it and realize just how big this movie actually was, like, not just in the franchise but in cinema that year as a whole. It's pretty cool. And then (NOES) 4 made even more money than (NOES) 3

Brennan: Yeah, wasn't (NOES 4) the highest grossing entry in a slasher franchise until Freddy Versus Jason?

Michael: Until Scream (1996)

Brennan: Until Scream, you're right

Michael: Scream and Scream 2 were one and two until Halloween (2018) came out

Michael: One more thing about Nancy and then we should wrap it up. What do you feel about her dying? How do you feel about her dying? I don't like it, personally. I mean, I think it makes sense to the story. I think it was supposed to be meant as like a passing of the torch, and I think they thought Patricia Arquette would take over the franchise at that point, but then didn't let her fuckin' do (NOES) Part 4 'cause she was pregnant. I don't know if that was the filmmaker's decision or hers, but I'm gonna choose to think it was the patriarchy. So I get kind of why. I couldn't find if Heather Langenkamp said, "Kill me. I don't wanna do any more of these," but I'm not a fan, (to X) you just mentioned Friday (the 13th) Part 2 and I'm totally cool with the Randy Meeks of it all, dying mid-way through Scream 2 as like a supporting character. But I don't like when franchises kill off their lead. It really bums me out

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: That is, it is really nihilistic

Michael: It's a hard death, too!

Brennan: It's a thing of, "You can survive this horrible trauma, but it's still always going to claim you?"

Michael: "Your fate is death. Always."

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: And that's kind of the narrative that's accidentally happens through these--

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: And that is brutal. I don't agree with that

Michael: I also don't think Nancy would fall for that

Sam: No

Michael: I don't think she would believe that's her dad

Sam: No. Not at all. Not a woman who would wear that to a funeral, no. She would not fall for that

Michael: And then fight in a pink sweater and grey sweatpants. Girl had it

Sam: She knows what the fuck is going on. They're wrong, and in our version, she is alive. And that's why New Nightmare works so well

Michael: I mean it does work so well because (Wes Craven) brought her back from the dead

Sam: I do think

Brennan: She looks like an even hotter mess in that one

Sam: She fucking does

Michael: God, I fucking love New Nightmare

Nay: Me too

Sam: To bring this back, and maybe this is so easy because of how we recorded them, but Katt Shea said about The Rage:.Carrie 2, the reason she killed Rachel was because there's something poetic about death, and when you kill your characters like that, like she did with those two, not those two 'cause he survived, but it means that their love is pure. It makes it something you can look back at and say, "That ended there, so there's no question." And I think that with Nancy, maybe there's the idea that that's what's going on. She's a hero, and she gets a hero's death.

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Sam: But I don't fuckin' want that. And maybe as people who have done so much surviving and done so much fighting, what we want more than anything is to see people continue to live

Michael: Right. And why does it always have to be a sacrifice that makes you remembered--

Sam: (sighs) Garbage

Michael: Or the ultimate goodness is sacrifice yourself? Why can't you do that and live?

Brennan: If we're getting geopolitical about it, isn't that just propaganda to get people to fight in wars, like, "a hero's death is an honorable one you should desire this so you can go fight in our wars."

Michael: True. What do you think, Nay?

Nay: Oh yeah. Absolutely. People. (sighs) They want you to feel good about getting tricked into what they want you to think

Michael: Fighting for them?

Nay: Yeah. And part of me feels good about the death because of how poetic it is and how it sets it up for New Nightmare

Michael: It is

Nay: But, I also agree that when you are in communities who fight for survival, sometimes it just feels so cathartic to see someone fight and win. Or someone to work hard and succeed. And so, yeah

Michael: I mean, I had forgot. I had seen this movie so many times and I had actually forgotten about the moment that (Nancy) actually does stab (Freddy) with his own claw

Nay: Yes!

Michael: Which is amazing!

Nay: Yes!

Michael: I was like, "Oh fuck yeah! I forgot about that!"

Nay: Yes

Michael: But just let--

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Reshoot it, get her back in Patricia Arquette's arms and let her flutter her eyes open like, "I'm gonna make it." I dunno

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Michael: It just would've been so cool. And then she could go away. She doesn't need to be in (NOES) Part 4!

Brennan: Yeah, she could be like Alice and just not show up in Freddy's Dead,be like, "Peace!"

Michael: Yeah! I dunno. It's disappointing when that happens

Brennan: Yeah

Brennan: One super-fast question before we go

Nay: Mmm-hmm?

Brennan: Do you think the Thai food in Springwood is any good?

Michael: (laughs) Um, no.

Brennan: Yeah. That's what I thought

Sam: Absolutely. It's the only place to eat. That's it

Michael: That Thai restaurant they were in in L.A. that they were actually in looked delicious

Nay: Right

Michael: I love that the first three movies are in California and then for some reason later in the series they decide it's in Ohio that the movies are set in? Anyway.

Michael: (to Nay) I should've asked you if you thought Nancy's death was "Yay or Nay"

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