Episode 26: "That's A Bad Dom"

''This week the queerwolves are traveling to a sleepy little suburban hamlet, the site of untold horrors for any outspoken gay. We’re talking 1975’s THE STEPFORD WIVES! Nay discovers that 70’s liberalism MIGHT have a few flaws, Mark digs up some delicious Betty Friedan shade, and Michael lusts after that one cop in the movie. Plus, in Tea Time we sip on AHS: FREAK SHOW, true crime podcasts, and the Last Blockbuster! ''

Trivia
"We are comin' at ya tonight from the frozen food aisle of the world's most terrifying fucking grocery store…"

Topics brought up during the episode: Ringu, Sadako, Sadako movie, Hideo Nakata returning to direct Ringu 2019,

Tea Time
Nay: Went back and watched American Horror Story: Freak Show

Mark: Greta; Climax

Michael: Over My Dead Body podcast season 1

Brennan: The Cry (2007)

Pride Float
Michael: Does this movie get a Pride float?

Nay: Only if there's a sequel where Bobbie and Joanna fuck. Because I just think it would be really good. Also, when I watched this--

Michael: That's it!

Nay: That's it!

Nay: When I watched this earlier this week, there's this meme going around a lot about tall bottoms and short tops…

Brennan: My favorite

Nay: Oh my God, so funny

Mark: (as Frank Nelson) Go on…

Nay: Was it like a screenshot from Bambi or something?

Michael: Jesus

Nay: Because it's like the deer…

Brennan: When he's learning to walk?

Nay: Yeah, and is it like, Thumper who's like short and sniffing Bambi's ass, so it looks like Thumper's eating Bambi's ass, and so Thumper's short and standing up and Bambi's tall, so I was talking about short tops and tall bottoms…

Mark: Oh my God!

Nay: And I was like, "What if Joanna and Bobbie…? Joanna's the short top, duh. And Bobbie's the tall bottom, duh." And it just sounds so good

Mark: That's why we need a remake

Nay: Yeah

Michael: There you go, folks

Nay: So yeah, I would give that…

Michael: You'd give that a Pride float?

Nay: A whole float and a party night, dedicated to short tops and tall bottoms

Mark: I agree. I don't think The Stepford Wives gets a Pride float. The only reason it would get a Pride float is to be like, "Aren't you glad you're gay?" Because straight people--

Michael: So true!

Mark: I look at this movie and I'm like, "Ahh, straight people are wild!"

Michael: "I'm gonna go sixty-nine with my boyfriend!"

Mark: I'm just like, "Woof, it's bleak. It is bleak."

Nay: Uh-huh. I feel that

Mark: So, on that level, yeeees it gets a Pride float? I dunno

Michael: Yeah. No Pride float for me, but I give it a recommend

Mark: All right

Nay: Yeah, definitely a recommend

Quotes
Michael: We are solo tonight.

Nay: We are

Michael: Well, not really, but we're amongst ourselves

Mark: Stood up

Nay: Mmmm, true

Michael: Yes. Anyway

Mark: Somebody got Kara. I'm just saying, we're talking Stepford today, and Kara conveniently couldn't make it

Michael: Uh-oh!

Nay: True

Mark: Because of the "flu"

Michael: Mark, what did you do to her? That's her partner's name, Mark, so…

Mark: I was gonna say, "I don't know!"

Brennan: She shows up next week and she's like, "Why don't they have a Straight Pride parade?"

Mark: That's true. Oh my God!

Michael: Oh my Gawd!

Mark: Exactly

Michael: That would be a modern…

Mark: She goes from ally to like, I dunno, Tomi Lozenge or whatever the hell her name is

Nay: She makes my throat hurt, okay?

Mark: She's done now, right?

Michael: Yeah, I mean she tried to be junior Ann Coulter and it isn't working for her, and so now she's just posting pics and videos like she's a fuckin' realtor

Mark: She really was like the Muppet Babies Ann Coulter for a minute, for a minute

Michael: Angriest realtor in West Hollywood?

Mark: Oh God, that's right she lives in West Hollywood!

Michael: Isn't that the worst?

Nay: Yes, she does. What does she do?

Michael: It just bothers me, she lives in the one place she talks the most shit about, but she happily lives in its protections

Mark: So, I'm sure then that she just climbs out of her well and occasionally shows up at like…

Michael: She's the modern-day Samara? From The Ring?

Mark: The RNC's Samara, yes

Mark: Speaking of videotapes, did you guys read about the Last Blockbuster?

Michael: Yes, I did!

Mark: I was like, what does it say about me that, it's in Bend, Oregon, and they were like, "We have no plans to close!" And I was like, "You go, Blockbuster! That's right, you don't close!"

Michael: Did you slow-clap?

Mark: I totally did! It was like a Rudy moment for me. Reading about it, I was like, "I wanna do a pilgrimage," and then I was like, "What's wrong with me?" But I think I'm having a serious nostalgia kick or something

Michael: Well, yeah...

Mark: I mean, when you're nostalgic for Blockbuster, which like back then was…

Michael: You worked at one though, right?

Mark: I did. I even worked at one

Michael: That's part of it

Mark: So, I mean compared to like, the real Mom and Pop video stores that had like, some of the real gritty fun stuff…

Michael: Oh yeah, that was always great

Mark: You know, Blockbuster always kind of sucked, so, I dunno, I just wanna say that now I'm nostalgic for Blockbuster and that kind of bummed me out

Michael: Yeah… I saw someone post an article, I didn't read it, but the headline was something like, heh-heh, very modern of me to just read the headline, was something like, "People are nostalgic for a chain of stores that actually brought down every Mom and Pop shop in America"...

Mark: Exactly

Michael: So it's interesting, but it is the end of an era

Mark: Anyway, I was like, "I'm broken!"

Michael: You and me both

Brennan: We were a Hollywood Video family for a time

Michael: Same! That was the closest, that was like a block closer to us than Blockbuster

Brennan: Ours was further, but Blockbuster sucked so we decided to go the extra mile

Michael: Hollywood Video always had better deals…

Brennan: Yes

Michael: Like two-for-one, or third night free

Brennan: Absolutely! And they didn't charge you late fees for no reason.

Nay: We had a lot of Family Videos, is that a thing?

Michael: Yeah, that's still a video chain in Cleveland, there's like two still open in Cleveland. (whispers) They have a curtain room, it's great!

Mark: In Canada we had West Coast Video

Michael, Nay and Brennan: Oh!

Mark: Which at the time, in Oakville, Ontario, was impossibly glamorous sounding, like, (seductively) "West Coast Video. West Coast…"

Michael: Was there a commercial?

Mark: They had a jingle

Michael: Ahh, do you remember it?

Mark: No

Michael: Sing it. You love to sing!

Nay: It looked like you were…

Michael: (as Mark) "Don't make me sing!"

Mark: "Don't make me sing, don't make me sing!"

Michael: He so wants to sing!

Mark: It was like, (sings) "Get the best from the west, West Coast Video!" (normal voice) and it basically just like looped that for a half-hour while you were in the store munching on popcorn…

Michael: So great

Nay: Bomb

Mark: Staring at, you know, Shannon Tweed covers…

Michael: And like cardboard cutouts of her?

Mark: And I remember looking at Shannon Tweed and being like, "She's a sexy lady."

Michael: Sure is!

Mark: "People think she's a sexy lady. Why don't I think she's a sexy lady?"

Michael: "Oooh, Chris Sarandon!"

Mark: Exactly

Brennan: The phrase "West Coast" really was like a magical totem…

Mark: Yeah

Brennan: At least from my anthropological studies of the 1981 My Bloody Valentine

Mark: Mmm-hmm

Michael: Great movie

Brennan: The guy who comes back to his Canadian mining town, he was trying to make it on the west coast. It's never clear like, the coast of where, it's just capital "W", capital "C", so I totally feel that

Mark: Yeah, it really-- it had a magical chimes to it, that term

Michael: I miss video stores. We had a small-town one at my college, the horror section was so big they had to take the boxes and flatten them, and then put them in a filing cabinet because there were so many

Brennan: (groans orgasmically)

Mark: Wow

Michael: It was the best

Nay: My hometown college had a really cute store too, called That's Rentertainment, and their horror section was huge

Brennan and Michael: (gasp)

Mark: You get it? "Rentertainment", clever. Into it

Michael: I love puns. Sarah Jessica Parker's character would love the name of that video store. Anyway

Mark: (as SJP on Sex and the City) "And I had to wonder…"

Michael: (as SJP on Sex and the City) "Was I kind and rewound?"

Mark: (as SJP on Sex and the City) "Were we all about ninety-nine cents on Tuesdays?"

Brennan: (as SJP on Sex and the City) "It's time to return this relationship before I incur a late fee."

Mark: There you go

Nay: That is what she would have said

Nay: (Freak Show) is my favorite season (of American Horror Story) and it was amazing

Michael: Yeah?

Nay: Yes

Michael: I've never seen that season

Nay: Oh my God. Actually, you know what, there are parts of it I'm so uncomfortable during, and I don't feel that often when I watch anything. I was like, "Oh. I'm physically uncomfortable right now."

Mark: Was that before or after Hotel?

Brennan: Before

Nay: Before

Michael: I think it was the season before it

Nay: The one before

Mark: Okay, see, I-- like around Hotel was the one, and I missed Freak Show, I was like, "Hotel. Lady Gaga. Sure. Like vampires, okay." And then the first five minutes of Hotel…

Michael: Click!

Mark: There was a man who was fucked to death with a spike...

Michael: Oh yeah!

Mark: And I was like, "I'm good! I'm, ah, I'm good!"

Brennan: But Freak Show has Jessica Lange singing "Life on Mars"

Nay: Oh my God, right?

Brennan: In this beautiful glittery production number

Nay: It's beautiful

Brennan: That musical number was literally the only reason I watched the rest of the season, and then it happened again, so

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Rewarding

Mark: Didn't she also sing "The Name Game" in the Asylum episode?

Michael: Oh my God, yeah

Brennan: She sure did

Nay: Yes

Mark: I remember randomly flipping to it, and she was like, "Banana fanna…" and I was like, "Am… was I dosed? Like, what?"

Brennan: No, Ryan Murphy lets Jessica Lange do what she wants, and that is always a good Instinct

Nay: Oh, I would do the same

Mark: She was a remarkably good Joan Crawford, I have to say

Michael: She's doing something else for him right now, right?

Mark: I'm sure

Brennan: I think so

Michael: Isn't he doing another series for FX that she's in?

Brennan: I'm sure he is

Mark: I think he's doing something for Netflix

Michael: Or for Netflix, yeah. Seven thousand things in the fire, always

Brennan: "This anthology's gonna be based on Twitter threads."

Michael: And like, a Twitter fight?

Mark: One thing I saw was Greta, which is just… not really sure how to describe Greta beyond the fact that it's terrible, but fantastic, at the same time?

Brennan: Oh, absolutely

Mark: If you like Isabelle Huppert, you will love Greta, because it is just a movie where people were like, "You know, just turn the camera on Isabelle. Just flip a table, freak out, spit on Chöe Moretz, whatever! Just, whatever." And it's a good time

Mark: For people who thought that the Guadagnino remake of Suspiria (2018) was too heady or too intellectual or altogether too pretentious for them, may I recommend, currently in theaters, A24 released Gaspar Noe's Climax. It is horrifying…

Michael: I've been hearing a lot about this

Mark: It is terrifying. It is-- long story short, it's about a group of dancers who are about to…

Michael: Oh, right!

Mark: And there's incredible dancing in this movie, it's so violent and alive. One reviewer described it as, "Fame (1980) directed by the Marquis de Sade" and that's super accurate

Michael: That's cool

Mark: And it's clearly in many ways, stylistically, lighting-wise, very inspired by the Argento Suspiria (1977). And according to the, you know, the press notes, "Climax is based on a true story." I have zero idea if that's actually true, but Climax is about a group of dancers who rehearsing a giant piece, they're about to, based in France, and they're about to fly to America, New York, the next day. And so they're having a party, partying in their theatre, their rehearsal space-slash-dorm, whatever. And they're dancing, they're smoking, they're blowing rails, and they're sharing margaritas…

Michael: (chuckling) Blowing rails

Mark: Sorry, not margaritas, they're drinking sangria, and slowly but surely they come to realize that the sangria was dosed

Nay: Oh no

Mark: With some really, really bad shit

Michael: LSD

Mark: Yeah. And so begins a descent-- what begins as this exuberant, sort of…

Michael: Holy shit!

Mark: These characters that you don't know well, but you know them. Just a total descent into madness. It's the type of movie where halfway through I was covering my face with my sweater and I was sitting sideways in the seat, because I was like, "Just make it fucking stop."

Michael: I wish I could see that!

Nay: Oh yeah

Mark: So, trigger warning-y, if you-- if Irreversible and I Stand Alone were not your cup of tea, it's the same director. This movie is not as genuinely upsetting as at least Irreversible was? Irreversible was, once is enough. But there's nothing like it in theaters right now, and if, like I said, Suspiria (2018) was kind of a letdown for you? Then get to the theater, 'cause this one is delivering on a visceral level that is pretty unmatched for anything in theaters right now

Michael: Yeah, I saw someone post an article about it, and it was funny, it was like, "How much of it to watch if this trigger warning triggers you," so it's like, "Stay 'till this seventeen-minute mark, 'cause something's gonna happen, so you should leave." And it was basically all the chances you have to walk out of Climax

Mark: Yeah

Michael: And it eventually it went, it spoiled it, but as I was reading it, I was laughing and I felt like there was so much going on in the movie that whatever supposedly was a spoiler, I wouldn't get unless I see it anyway

Mark: Mmm-hmm

Michael: But I just thought that was a really funny article

Mark: Yeah. It is-- that is accurate

Michael: Yeah

Mark: I toughed it out throughout, but there was like, I saw it in a semi-packed theater and there were people that kept leaving, and that's actually weirdly part of the fun

Michael: Seeing when they leave?

Mark: Yeah. Because there's certain things where you know it's timed to what's going on on-screen, where people are like, "Nope! Nope!"

Michael: "I'm out!"

Mark: And they just get up and they walk out

Michael: The first one in this article was thirty seconds in

Mark: It's-- look, and it's Gaspar Noe, so it's like, Enter the Void, did you guys see that?

Michael: Yeah, I've seen that

Mark: Okay, I mean, that is a movie that makes you feel like you've done drugs. Like it's the most…

Michael: It really does

Mark: Like your eyes turn into spirals…

Michael: It's trippy

Mark: Two minutes in, because the credits are so fuckin' crazy, and this is sort of like the same-- it is an experience and you have to see it on a big screen if you can, so just do it

Michael: I've been getting into a lot of true crime…

Mark: Oooh!

Michael: Because why not?

Mark: (Frank Nelson kind of voice) Murder?

Michael: Yeah. So I actually went to-- based on a suggestion from my friend Mark, I… you

Mark: Oh!

Michael: I took a weekend trip alone…

Nay: Nice

Michael: To kind of do a reset…

Mark: Just go

Michael: Just do it. (fey voice) Just get out of here

Mark: Just get out of here

Michael: And my boyfriend was like, "I don't wan-- you can go." So I actually drove to Palm Springs over the weekend, and on the way home I took like a six-hour route, it was awesome. But I listened to an entire podcast called Over My Dead Body, and it's really great. I don't wanna say too much about it because the final episode just came out yesterday. But it's about a Jewish couple, and I only bring up the fact that they're Jewish 'coz their religion plays a big part of their A.) Identity and B.) Into the podcast and C.) Into the community that's involved in the podcast, but I'm not gonna say anything more than it's hilarious at times, it's about this young Jewish couple, they're both lawyers, they're both super-smart, but then after they get married, things devolve, they start hating each other, there's a divorce, there's a murder, it's really great

Mark: Sounds juicy

Michael: And I hate to say it's really great, because there's a living, well, not anymore, but like there's a person that was real and living and is dead is part of the plot, so you forget sometimes when you're listening to those true crime podcasts that they're real. But it's a really great listen, it's six episodes, they're forty minutes each, it's like (snaps fingers) goes over like that, and it was just optioned for a TV show, because what the fuck isn't anymore. But it would actually make a really great TV show and I just like, I dunno, for some reason Sarah Paulson looks nothing like the main woman, but I'm just like, "Just throw Sarah Paulson in it." Every podcast I cast her in, when I'm listening to a show, I cast Sarah Paulson in all of these. But it's super great, and just really quick recs in that vein: Lorena, I don't know if we brought that up here yet…

Mark: Did we?

Nay: I remember texting about it

Michael: Yeah. I remember texting saying we need to talk about it, and then we didn't. America owes (Lorena Bobbitt) an apology. And I watched a documentary on HBO and I don't feel like saying the title because it's so rough, Leaving Neverland

Mark: I saw the first part and (whistles) (explosion noise)

Michael: Mmm-hmm

Mark: Yeah, I dunno. All I have to say is, if you love Michael Jackson's music, and of course, who doesn't…

Michael: Do you need to love Michael Jackson's music that much?

Mark: Well, no, but I mean I think that it's unavoidable, there's no way-- I heard someone somewhere talk about how that music is, you can't cancel that music…

Michael: True, it's literally everywhere

Mark: It's literally what today's pop is composed of, so…

Michael: That's a really good point

Mark: This is not me, this is someone much smarter about music talking

Michael: Mark is so smart that he brought that up

Mark: It's all me. So it's like, okay, you can't unring a bell, you can't unhear it. But you have to… I find the idea that you could watch these men's testimonies and doubt their sincerity or…

Michael: Their truth?

Mark: Because you love "Thriller" just too much?

Nay: Right

Michael: I mean, I hate to laugh, but right

Nay: Right

Mark: Fuck you, you know?

Michael: It's a total fuck you

Mark: It's just, come on. Both things can be true: Michael Jackson can be a genius, and he can also be an abused child who in turn abused the shit out of a bunch of people himself

Michael: That is exactly what Wade Robson's sister says

Mark: Yeah

Michael: She's like, "You can appreciate someone's genius, and you can acknowledge it. But they can also be a disgusting horrible human being that hurt many many many many many people."

Mark: Yeah. Both things are true

Michael: Yeah

Michael: Is it corner time, Brennan? Lighten the mood with some…

Brennan: Yeah, sure!

Mark: (sings to the tune of "My Sharona") La Llorona! Dun-dun-dun…

Michael: (joins in) I, I, I, I, wooo!

Nay: Wow

Michael and Mark: La la la Llorona!

Nay: Y'all aren't gay

Michael: I just wanna know about that picture of that guy. That's all I wanna know

Brennan: Oh! That's actually-- spoiler for next week I'm gonna bring that one up.

Michael: (softly with longing) He's so sexy…

Brennan: Do I have his name? Yeah, I'll tell you about that later, I don't have notes on that one yet

Michael: Hottie McGee? Is that his stage name? Hottie McGee? Hot Dad?

Brennan: Yep. Because that's the exact same joke naming convention they have in Mexico, yep.

Nay: Oh. My God

Mark: I saw that picture and I was like, "I wouldn't-- he's not my first choice to play La Llorona. But I'll take it."

Brennan: Okay, for the record, just here's a clue for what I'm going to be talking about next time: There's an actor named Adrià Collado

Michael: Text me that

Brennan: And he's in a movie called Kilometer 31, and he is, he is a hot dad. He's a silver fox

Nay: DILF

Michael: He is. He's everything

Brennan: Anyway, real quick, this is like an amuse-bouche to the La Llorona Corner, I watched a movie called The Cry from 2007, which is an update of La Llorona into a New York setting, because that's gonna be great. It is relentlessly tedious…

Mark: So they gentrified La Llorona?

Brennan: Yeah, they sure did

Nay: Damn

Michael: (laughing) It's so true!

Brennan: Yeah, this is…

Mark: Just checking, I just...

Brennan: It's just as destructive and painful as real gentrification

Michael: It stars Lena Dunham, it's in Brooklyn…

Mark: Sorry. Oh, Brennan I'm sorry

Brennan: No, it's really boring except for a single scene where a mom kills her son for opening a new jar of chocolate sauce instead of using the one that's already open in the cupboard

Nay: Oh, shit, that is something my Mom did

Michael: Three-and-a-half stars for me

Brennan: I feel like my mom would totally relate to that

Nay: (laughing) Oh yeah!

Michael: My mom used to get so mad if someone would do something like that

Mark: Yeah, relatable

Brennan: The one I really want to talk about-- do you guys remember last time when I talked about that Cabin in the Woods slasher movie called The Wailer?

Nay: Yes

Michael: Yeah!

Brennan: Well, I watched The Wailer 2

Michael: Oh my God, everything has a sequel

Brennan: From 2006. This movie? Weirdly better than the original movie. I would say it is…

Michael: One of those rare sequels better than the original, huh?

Brennan: I know! No, it's got better atmosphere, the director actually knows how to like, shoot a scene. There's some canted angles so it's like, well that's the most basic trick in the book, but they read the book is the point. Anyway, it's gorier, the Llorona pulls off somebody's head at one point…

Michael: Oh, cool!

Brennan: 'Cause the first one had like no gore at all, and this-- the one thing I will say is as always there is a problematic element to La Llorona, especially in the more exploitative movies, directed by men, womp-womp.

Mark: Why, is she like, topless or something?

Brennan: No! In this one she's...

Michael: (laughing) I don't know why that one just killed me, but it did

Nay: That would be bomb

Michael: She only shows one tit

Mark: She's like, killing kids with her titties out

Nay: Bomb. That would be so bomb, oh my God

Brennan: That's an aesthetic

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Her supernatural tits?

Mark: Or just one? Just one

Brennan: That's like ancient art right there

Michael: (as La Llorona) "This is the better looking one."

Brennan: No, but in this movie they do the really hackneyed, they somehow force her into the framework of like, succubus temptress who turns into an old hag after you try to make out with her…

Mark: (disappointed) Ah, well

Nay: (disappointed) Well

Brennan: So that's a rough thing. And also, spoiler alert for The Wailer 1, the final girl who survives that gets possessed by La Llorona and it palpably does not give a shit about the fate of the actual girl. Like, "We're gonna exorcise La Llorona out of her, but she only matters as a vessel for La Llorona," and the second she is safe she is shoved off-screen, so the men can finish their arc

Nay: Wow

Brennan: So that's really rough

Mark: Geez

Brennan: I would not recommend this movie, except the guy who plays the dad who's like, trying to find his daughter is really trying to do a Liam Neeson thing, it's not working. Also, sorry for bringing up Liam Neeson, that's a rough conversation right now. But he's always like, (as the dad from The Wailer 2)  "I'm in Mexico trying to find La Llorona, buh-buh-buh…"

Michael: And his daughter's Maggie Grace? She's in it

Mark: (wistfully) Maggie Grace

Brennan: No, I wish. But there's also like a really tender moment between the hot dude taxi driver who's like helping out the white guy, his uncle and his uncle's best friend out of nowhere have a scene about how they're best friends and they're really tender and they share a moment and like, I wasn't ready for this in this movie, but I'll take it. Anyway, she rips off a dude's head.

Nay: Bomb

Brennan: The end

Nay: With her tits out or no?

Brennan: No. So that was…

Nay: Oh! That would have been major

Brennan: Actually, you know what...

Michael: She actually pulls her top down first and then she rips his head off

Mark: Did she do it with her boobs?

Nay: (laughing) Yeah!

Brennan: I wish. I don't recall if she's topless at any point…

Mark: Can I write a La Llorona movie?

Michael: Yes!

Brennan: I bet you can write a better one than some of these mid-2000s ones

Mark: With her boobs

Nay: Yeah

Michael: That's the subtitle?

Mark: Cut to me at Screen Gems going like, "Okay, in this scene…"

Michael: "Her boobs are the weapon."

Mark: Yeah

Nay: Fuck yeah

Michael: "Again."

Mark: It's like a full-on Chesty Morgan La Llorona..

Michael: (chuckling) Screen Gems…

Mark: That was a movie, Chesty Morgan was a porn star, a famous porn star and she was famous for a movie called Chesty's Deadly Weapons-- and she literally had the biggest…

Michael: Did she smother people?

Mark: Yes. And it was a movie about how men would be hypnotized by her, and then she would smother them to death with her rack

Michael: That's pretty great

Nay: Oh! That's amazing. Oh my God, goals

Mark: Oh, okay, have you seen Serial Mom?

Michael: Yes

Mark: That is the movie that uh, is it Chip? No, that's her son…

Michael: Is he watching that?

Mark: No, it's the movie that the guy is jerking off to

Michael: Oh yeah yeah yeah

Mark: Chesty's Deadly Weapons. I'm pretty sure that's the title

Michael: Is he jerking off to her tits or the dead men?

Mark: No, but a shot of her boobs coming into the camera, and so he…

Michael: With the POV?

Mark: Yeah

Michael: Boob POV like the shark from Jaws?

Mark: Kind of. It's really something. I think Something Weird put it out ages ago, so you can pick it up

Michael: Speaking of feminism

Mark: I know! While we're on a feminist kick

Michael: We are here to bring you a movie. Uh, who picked this?

Mark: I…

Michael: Oh! Our missing guest!

Mark: Our missing fembot

Nay: I was like...

Mark: Our missing guest Kara

Michael: Hi, Kara, we love you

Brennan: I have an intro for the trailer. You know how I kind of have to cut the shit out of the trailers to make them seem shorter and more interesting for everybody? ...The narrator seems to know we get easily bored, and he is rushing like hell to get through

Michael: He sounds cum-tastic

Brennan: What?

Michael: He sounds like he's in the middle of an orgasm the way he's speaking

Mark: Jesus!

Michael: I'm not kidding

Mark: All right, so dear listeners, picture that

Brennnan: Yeah!

Michael: Listen to him!

Mark: You be the judge

Michael: 'Coz he's talking about what they do to women

[Brennan plays the trailer]

Narrator in the trailer: In the town of Stepford, the men are getting exactly what they always dreamed of, perfect wives…

Michael: (moans and groans orgasmically)

Narrator in the trailer: And the dream is becoming a nightmare for the Stepford wives…

Michael: Am I wrong?

Michael: That trailer has every great line in the movie

Nay: True

Michael: (to Mark) Were you gonna say something?

Mark: I,no, go on

Michael: Oh no, go ahead

Mark: No, no! I, I…

Brennan: No, you hang up!

Mark: I have a lot of thoughts about The Stepford Wives...

Michael: Same

Mark: Especially in terms of how The Stepford Wives as an adaptation of an Ira Levin novel, and Ira Levin of Rosemary's Baby and Sliver

Brennan: And Sliver!

Mark: You know, Sliver. I mean, I guess we'll never know really what was truly intended by Sliver. Like, there's a book of Sliver out there, and I could read it, but I'm just like, "Eh."

Michael: "Eh. I'm good."

Mark: I dunno. Was this anyone's first time watching Stepford?

Michael: No, no

Nay: No

Mark: So revisiting it, how did you feel?

Michael: It felt, I dunno. I don't remember how I felt when I initially saw it. I've seen it a handful of times now, too. It's just been a really long time, but I think it's a really great movie

Nay: I remember thinking it was creepy when I was younger, but this time when I watched it, I think that-- I guess I'm just always shocked by people who try to make their partners into something they're not…

Mark: Mmm-hmm

Nay: And I dunno, it made me think a lot about kink and how I think when I was younger, I thought a lot of sexual experiences or kinky sexual experiences as like, convincing someone that you're having sex with to participate in certain things, and it's like no, if you're really into something you find someone who wants that done to them..

Mark: The difference between consent and enthusiastic consent

Nay: Right. And I'm like, "You couldn't find women to just-- that want to clean the kitchen all day?"

Mark: Who loved waxing the floor?

Nay: Yeah. EZ-Off, okay?

Michael: I think there's something-- the kink for them is making someone do what they want them to do

Nay: Yeah, I know

Michael: Yuck

Nay: Gross

Mark: That's a, that's a bad dom

Nay: Oh, yeah

Mark: So it's weird. I love this movie, right? And I think it's aged well, because it's like the older it gets, the more of a time capsule it is, the more I love it. At the same time, having read the novel and then sort of revisiting it this week again, because it had been awhile, it's interesting because I ended up feeling like… So, everybody, Michael forwarded to us a New York Times article that was like, "Oh, Stepford Wives from 1975. The Stepford Wives was screened for a group of prominent feminists…"

Michael: Yep

Mark: "And feminist activists, and most notably the reaction initially from that group was predominantly negative."

Michael: Yeah. Mostly disgust

Mark: Yeah. And Betty Friedan herself was visibly upset, apparently…

Nay: That's wild

Mark: And stalked out and called the movie "a rip-off of the women's movement." And I remember first reading that and being like, I admit rolling my eyes and like, "Come on." And then I was like, "Wait a minute." And I went back and looked at the book a little bit and it's really interesting because like, "No wonder she felt that fucking way," because I have this pet theory now that The Stepford Wives movie is like a fembot facsimile of The Stepford Wives novel, in a way...

Michael: Okay

Mark: In that Joanna in the novel, or novella, because it's super-short, she calls herself a "semi-professional photographer", but she has an agency, she has photos that are repped. She has a revenue stream

Michael: So she has a career

Mark: She has a career!

Nay: She's not like begging like in the movie

Mark: No. In the movie, Joanna's like, (as Joanna) "I'm a semi-professional wannabe, I dunno, bluuuuuh."

Michael: She does everything but call herself a professional

Mark: Right. Yeah. And you know, in the movie, Walter's like, "Well this is why we moved out here, 'cause.you could build a darkroom, you could do this, you could do that," and she just sort of sits there and is like, (as Joanna) "I'm not happy!" (normal voice) And in the novel, she looks next door and Carol Van Zant is obsessed with waxing the floor and sort of like…

Michael: It's so fucked up

Mark: And so she, in reaction to that, she's like, "Fuck that, I'm not fucking doing that." And so she pours herself a cocktail-- she starts building her darkroom, and then she starts going through her contact sheets and she finds a photo that she's like, they describe it as, she describes herself in the novel as wanting to start a N.O.W. chapter and being a fierce feminist, and you know, she gets really excited about a photo that she took before she left New York, which is a picture of a Black man in a beautiful suit and attaché case, scowling at a taxicab that's empty that drove by him. So she's like this incredibly aware, interested…

Michael: The picture just says a lot…

Mark: Right

Nay: Yeah

Michael: About who she is, what her art is…

Mark: And who she's interested in discussing in her art

Michael: What her POV is, yeah

Mark: And it's fascinating to me then as-- and also, another thing in the novel is that the women are not, who have been Stepford-ized are not described as being Xanax-y, kind of like, (relaxed) "No women actually speak this way." (normal voice) But the movie titled towards comedy in a sense, in a way, and so I was like, like Betty Friedan and all these women who watched it that night and were pissed the fuck off, I go, "Well, no wonder they were pissed off." It's like this movie made entirely by men suddenly was-- and I still love the movie, but I have another reason and I'm gonna shut up in two seconds, but I was like, "Oh…"

Michael: No, I'm glad you brought this up

Mark: "Isn't it interesting that that would be the initial reaction why it was seen as kind of like a giant eyeroll." Because it was essentially how I guess they felt that night, just totally ripping off and making fun of a movement

Michael: Well, it's interesting that you bring this up, I was going to bring this up later, but it's great to bring it up now 'coz it's about the time the movie was made. And in that article, one of the "opinion-makers" is what they called them when they did this-- was it Columbia that released the picture, they're the ones that put this together?

Mark: They distributed it

Michael: And they talk about what you just said, one of them said, "If I ever hear that bra-burning again, well, it's just something no woman would have put in there as a line." And then this really resonated with me because it's something that was said forty-four years ago and it's still being said today, about how the awareness session ended with the remaining women pretty much agreeing that the movie was "junk and should not be taken seriously. And that when they finally let women write and direct their own movies, if they're ever going to have any intelligent women's pictures..." because that was another thing Columbia was doing at the time was say this was a "women's picture" so they were finally catering to the other half of the audience, you know? It wasn't just two guys, it was two women that were at the forefront of the movie

Nay: Jesus

Mark: Right

Michael: But you know, I was reading this thing that Entertainment Weekly put out two years ago about the making of the movie, and they spoke to a bunch of the actors and actresses, most notably Katharine Ross, who stars as Joanna and Paula Prentiss who stars as Bobbie

Mark: Paula Prentiss is so fucking good

Nay: Oh my God

Mark: Bobbie Markowitz for life

Michael: Yes. What's-her-name from Gilligan's Island

Mark: Oh…

Michael: They speak with her. I'm blanking

Mark: Tina Louise?

Michael: Yes. Nanette Newman, who played Carol, who is so great in the movie, that's hard to play. But they were talking about the reaction people had at the time, and the thing I found interesting in this article… is that everyone blamed Ira (Levin). At the time, everyone was talking about how Ira, his thoughts on feminism are horrible. Not the filmmakers, the guy who wrote the novel. And they were talking about how they interpreted that this is what Ira, and this is a question I was gonna ask you guys, that this is what Ira wants, that his version of The Stepford Wives is what he wants reality to be? And that was a question I was gonna pose for the two of you, just find it, 'cause I worded it…

Mark: Nay, what are your thoughts?

Michael: Yeah, what are your thoughts on that? Would you say that-- what do you think he was trying to say, Ira Levin? I haven't read the novel, I don't know if you have either

Nay: I have not

Michael: But even watching the film, I didn't take that away from watching the film either

Mark: I mean, I can chime in, having read the novel I can chime in

Nay: Please

Michael: Yeah, please do

Mark: So, and I say this as someone who will watch the shit out of the 1975 Stepford Wives. Any time it's on, right? Because it's just as a movie, if you take it on its own merits, it's just a well-constructed pop thriller. But, in comparison to what Ira Levin was trying to put across, um, Ira Levin's novel is about not being able to trust, like Rosemary Woodhouse, Joanna Everhart is not able to trust her own instincts that something is terribly wrong, and it is about the paranoia and the kind of gaslighting that goes on for Joanna, and not about a big reveal. And what's fascinating about the novel is that it ends in a, I mean spoiler for like a fuckin' forty-year novel-- and it's a really short book…

Nay: Thank God

Michael: Yeah, I wanna read it

Mark: Because even if you know everything that's gonna happen, it's still so well-written, it's so incisive and so great. But it ends with two things-- which I really fuckin' love, and totally forgot about. Joanna's sort of story ends with her, not at the Men's Association, and the men recording her children's cries to attract her…

Michael: And like maze-like like a haunted house

Mark: And a robot with black eyes…

Nay: That drove me nuts

Mark: That shit is nuts. And does it make for a fun movie?

Michael: Visually, of course

Mark: However, again, it is about fembotting the real sort of question at the center of the book, which is, the horror of The Stepford Wives as Ira Levin intended, as far as I can tell, is horror is not about what men do, necessarily. It's rather the constant fear these women are experiencing because they never feel that they can trust that they are safe

Michael: And there's nothing more frightening than knowing the truth about something and no one believing you

Nay: Oh God, yeah

Michael: Rosemary has the exact same thing in Rosemary's Baby

Mark: Exactly

Michael: Joanna has it here. I mean she has her confidant in Bobbie, but as soon as Bobbie's changed, like, "Fuck. Joanna's fucked."

Mark: And this is the thing. So the novel ends with everyone is treating Joanna like she's lost her shit, right? She's convinced, she's asking, "Do you bleed? Do you bleed?" And so…

Michael: Oh! Beautiful line

Mark: I know. And so they bring her over to Bobbie's house, Bobbie's been Stepford-ized by now, and she's like, (as Stepford-ized Bobbie) "Of course, Joanna." (normal voice) But it's not described as like, (tranquilized voice) "I'm on Valium and I sound like a cartoon."

Michael: I was gonna ask you that

Mark: No, and that's the thing. That's another reason why I would imagine that feminist activists at the time might have watched-- I mean, I'm filling in blanks that I have no, y'know, this is supposition, but I could see how Betty Friedan could watch the Seventy-five Stepford Wives and be like…

Michael: "What the fuck?"

Mark: "Fuck you, you're making fun of women. You're not making fun of men, you're making fun of women, because a woman who chooses to love housework doesn't need to seem like a fucking idiot. If she chooses to love housework, then she chooses to love housework." What's bizarre to Joanna is not that they're acting like cartoons, but rather women who had a variety of interests, and who had started a N.O.W. chapter a few months before she moved there, suddenly all they're interested in is simply doing housework, and so I found that incredibly illuminating in terms of what-- and then the irony is that the 2004 Stepford Wives is like a Stepford fembot of the Seventy-five version

Michael: It's like the Scary Movie version of-- it is, you know what I mean? I actually saw that in the movie theater

Nay: Me too

Mark: So did I!

Michael: I was so excited to be scared…

Mark: I was so excited!

Michael: I was like, "What the fuck is this?!"

Nay: Yeah…

Michael: I'm glad you brought that up, because I was gonna ask you both a question, and Brennan as well, if you wanna chime in…

Michael: What is this film's feminism? 'Cause to me, and please tell me if I'm wrong, I'm just some stupid gay white boy I don't know what I'm talking about half the time. It does strike a tone that "This is the only way to be a feminist, which is to be opposite of what the fembots are," right? And I always see true feminism, or feminism as, "There is no correct way to be a woman, per se."

Nay: Right

Michael: Whatever a woman likes to do and wants to do…

Nay: Right

Michael: And is making that choice to do that, and that includes being a housewife, it includes being a woman who loves to clean. That's feminism. And I feel like the film only gives us one POV of feminism. Sure, a lot of the women in the film had no choice in the matter of how they ended up, but we only see one POV from two, at times three characters, so all of them have the exact same POV on feminism. So, what are your thoughts on that?

Nay: I mean, yeah, it could've been-- I mean that's an interesting layer, to think about people choosing that and then people not choosing that and it being okay to choose that if it's your choice

Michael: Yeah, 'coz I think they missed an opportunity in the film to have a woman who didn't quote-unquote "need to be changed", you know what I mean?

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Because there's so many different-- I dunno. Like the film says you're either a cleaner or you're like a bra-burner, there's like nothing in-between, there's no other visual representation either. Where's the women of color, where's the queer women? There's no one over the age of thirty-five...

Mark: Well, I mean, listen.

Nay: I mean...

Mark: Seventy-five in Connecticut, you weren't gonna get...

Michael: But there's no one over the age of thirty-five.

Nay: Right

Michael: Is everyone else considered "unworthy" or-- you know what I mean?

Mark: This is like some Logan's Run shit happening

Michael: Yeah

Nay: It's just another way of expressing what they want ideally in a town and a community is not having those people

Michael: Yeah

Nay: If they really think that they're liberal for having Chinese food…

Michael: I forgot about that, I like the fog when she says that

Nay: And there's a Black family moving in "in the future"

Mark: Amazing

Nay: Like, I can't believe you have to be liberal for a Black person to live in your city. (laughing) It's just like, crazy

Mark: And the novel is like dry as a bone in terms of how it like lampoons those aspects. The whole segment with Bobbie and Joanna at the end ends with the men are upstairs in Bobbie's house, and the men are blasting rock music…

Michael: Okay. I'm into this like, dickfest

Mark: And Joanna's like, "What's going on?" And she thinks they're playing music that loud "in case I scream"

Michael: Oh shit. That's chilling

Nay: Ooof. Yeah

Mark: And basically it just ends with her sitting with Joanna and essentially ignoring her instincts and saying, "There's no way I could be right. There's no way that something could be wrong. Bobbie wouldn't do something to me, would she? Would she?" And then it kind of just essentially fades to black

Michael: Oh, I kind of love that

Mark: And the coda of the novel is great, because it introduces Ruth-Ann, a young Black woman…

Nay: Oh my God

Mark: Who's moved with her husband to Stepford, entering the supermarket and she's like, "Okay, here we go, we're new here," and you know, Carol Van Sant or someone, or Charmaine, I forget, is like, (as a Stepford wife) "Hi! I don't have to ask how you are because you just look incredible." (normal voice) And so, you know, Ruth-Ann is like, "Oh, okay." And she's literally like, "I guess being Black in Stepford may be okay after all. Maybe it'll be okay, who knows." And she talks to Joanna, who is, you know, (as Stepford-ized Joanna) "I'm so much happier now that I'm not doing photography, I'm just focusing on my housework or whatever."

Michael: (as Stepford-ized Joanna) "I'm a pledge."

Mark: But what's interesting is that Ruth-Ann is a writer…

Michael: Oh, no kidding

Mark: And it ends with her at home, telling her husband, you know, it's like, "I'm finally having a breakthrough on the book. You mind taking the kids to a restaurant tonight, I don't feel like cooking because I feel like I need to do it."

Nay: Wow

Mark: And her husband's like, "Yeah, no problem." And that's how it ends

Michael: Oh, wow

Nay: That's trippy

Mark: So, as far as the movie's brand of feminism, I think you can't dismiss The Stepford Wives out of hand, because it was the only pop feminist movie of its kind

Michael: Yeah, for sure, it was one of the first

Mark: But at the same time, it pulled punches in the sense that-- so, reading all this stuff, and revisiting the novel, I got annoyed with it, 'cause I was like, "Oh, so you turned Joanna into this sort of wannabe who's a little directionless and a little clueless, because what, you thought an audience wouldn't identify with a forthrightly feminist, forthrightly self-actualized, forthrightly professional woman," you know? She was too strong and that would be…

Michael: Is that quote-unquote "palatable" to like...

Mark: Right. They're hedging their bets. And then I thought-- it's so, I get so turned around because I was like, if you look at where the Women's Movement was in 1974, I guess when they shot this, it wasn't that popular. It wasn't like a pop thing, where it was really looked down on in a lot of circles. Phyllis Schlafly, you know, was actively fighting the E.R.A. that had passed Congress but would ultimately fail. And so, I feel like you still have to tip your hat to Stepford Wives in that they're like, "Okay. The people behind this movie agree with the tenets of feminism, and they agree sort of, that you know that they need to not-- that choice is essential to the dignity of any human being to live their life how they want to, and certainly women," and  so that's the reason why anybody who made this movie made this movie, right? Clearly that's what they believe. And so I guess why they made a lot of the pop choices around it, like making it a little funny, and not making it quite such a descent into hell like Rosemary's Baby was, but rather try to make it pop, so that you can seduce an audience that might be on the fence about the Women's Movement, about women's libbers or about whatever, to be like, "Oh, I see," you know what I mean? Because you can catch a lot of flies with honey rather than vinegar. And so, I get why it would piss some viewers off at the time, and why it's, I mean it's a landmark genre movie at the same time

Michael: Well, I had moments watching it, and I think I mentioned this to you before the show, watching it in today's context, some of the stuff Joanne says, I'm like, she's a bad bitch

Nay: Oh yeah

Mark: Yeah

Michael: Like she says her deal, she-- from the beginning...

Mark: Even sort of watered down, she still stands out

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Michael: Yeah! Even in the moments when he's like, "Have you ever done it in front of a log fire?" And she replies, "Not with you."

Mark: "Not with you."

Michael: I'm like, "Fuck yeah! Backhand that motherfucker," you know? And it's…

Mark: Does he, does the movie…? I forget all of a sudden, does the movie have a masturbation scene?

Nay: No

Michael: No

Mark: So in the novel, the first night that Walter goes to the men's club…

Michael: Men's club?

Mark: Men's Association…

Michael: Good for her

Mark: You know, presumably-- good for her! He's been pres-- No, she doesn't masturbate

Nay: (disappointed) Awwww

Michael: (disappointed) Awwww

Mark: (Valley girl voice) "Oh, boo!"

Nay: Who masturbates, then?

Mark: (Valley girl voice) "This story's boring!" (normal voice) Presumably at the Men's Association he's presented with this plan of like, "Hey. You know how Joanna can nag you?"

Michael: Yeah, naggy wife?

Mark: "You know, has a period and only God can imagine what the fuck…"

Michael: "Thoughts. She has thoughts."

Mark: Yeah, "Thoughts." You know, he would be presented with, "We could change all that." So, he comes home, and she's asleep by then, and she wakes up in the middle of the night and he just got home and he's jerking off.

Michael: And she catches him?

Mark: And she catches him, and he's like, "Oh, sorry, I didn't want to wake you up or whatever," and she's like, "What's come over you?" And then they have the best sex they've had in years

Michael: Huh

Nay: Hmmmmmm

Mark: But. It's so fucking twisted that like--

Michael: Yeah, fembot coming up

Mark: He's aroused at the fantasy of-- and in the novel he's like, "I'm going to change the Men's Association from the inside, honey. There's no reason why it should be so sexist as to be a Men's Association." And she's like, "Well, why don't I come with you?" And he's like, "No no no, let's not ruffle it up." Because he presents as a feminist, Walter, and so I dunno

Nay: That's wild

Mark: The story is just so ahead of its time in so many ways

Michael: There is-- and I mean the movie has-- I liked how everything is so layered in the movie, too. Like you start seeing it from the very beginning, like they do a lot of character development really quickly, briefly and right up front. Sometimes non-verbally too, like (Joanna's) first shot is of a mannequin being carried by a guy…

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Who has no respect for it, like limbs falling off, naked. She's got tape or some sort of binding over her eyes and ears. And watching it as a non-college student, because I think that was the last time I watched it, I was like, "Fuck! That's like a lot right there." And the first two minutes, it gives you a ton. It gives you the entire, it eventually gives you where the story's going from the very beginning

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Mark: And on top of it, Joanna is a photographer. I mean, she's a woman who sees

Michael: Her eyes are so important to her...

Mark: Right. She's a woman who sees

Michael: That's why that shot at the end-- are those eyes in the novel, the black eyes?

Mark: No

Michael: 'Coz that to me is a really powerful thing, those are the things she needs more than anything else in her life are her eyes

Nay: Yeah

Mark: And it's like, watching the movie, I'm like, "I get it. It's a movie, and it's a visual medium," so I get some of the choices. But again, the novel is not about a sci-fi big reveal "Surprise, men are bad!" It's like...

Nay: "We knew that."

Mark: Well, yeah. Ira Levin's taking, he's treating that as a probable par for the course, it's really just sticking to the idea that Joanna, there's no release for Joanna. Or the only release is that submission, and that's what makes this incredibly slight tiny little book just-- I mean it's like, "Bam!" it just hits you. That's what's amazing about it, is that you know it's coming but it's so well-written

Michael: Kind of like order that

Nay: I wish she'd had some release with Bobbie

Michael: Right?

Nay: 'Coz they would've looked real cute together

Mark: Remake!

Michael: I wanted to know your thoughts on a remake. I think it's ripe for a remake, I would love to see a woman's point of view via a remake

Nay: Yeah, that would be cool

Mark: I wish Sofia Coppola would like…

Nay: Oh, wow

Michael: Karyn Kusama?

Mark: Yeah

Michael: Someone who's really gonna lean into the paranoia aspect and really make a real chamber piece out of it.

Nay: Yeah

Mark: I think it would be interesting to try to-- I mean, it would be a bear, because dragging Stepford Wives out of comedy-- because that's where it's so interesting, because while the novel has a lot of laugh lines, you know Bobbie is a really funny character

Michael: Very funny. I love her

Nay: (chuckling) Paula Prentiss is so funny

Michael: So great in the movie

Mark: It's like a vice, the book

Michael: (sotto voce) I need to read that

Nay: (sotto voce) I know

Mark: I mean, I'd love to talk about the remake that does exist. I find it fascinating. I found it totally fascinating

Michael: It's so… bizarre. I haven't seen it in a really long time. Kara texted me when she said she couldn't make it today, she's like, "I even read the book again! I watched that shitty remake so I could talk about it on the show!" She's like, "I was so looking forward to making fun of the remake with you."

Brennan: Maybe that should be the episode when she comes back?

Mark: I mean, yeah, maybe

Michael: That's a good idea

Nay: Yeah

Mark: Then we could just fuckin' tear it apart

Michael: Just fuckin' tear that movie apart

Nay: I have not seen the remake since that time in the theater

Mark: I mean, there are certain things--

Michael: It was such a kick to the dick seeing that in the theater

Mark: Well, it's very, it just makes a-- right out of the gate it's making some hot choices that I'm like, "I don't even know what this is about." Nicole Kidman, who is, when you think about it, perfect to play a Joanna

Michael: Absolutely. The cast is great

Mark: Yeah, but they make her a television executive--

Michael: Reality TV?

Mark: Of frankly insane Paul Rudnick-y reality television

Michael: Well, it was 2004, we were kind of like the peak of reality TV, or like the initial peak of reality TV, when it was still dominated by the broadcast networks

Mark: Right.

Michael: But it was gettin' crazier and crazier. Like, what was that one with Darva Conger? Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire?

Mark: (softly) Oh my God

Nay: (softly) Yes

Mark: With Joe Millionaire?

Michael: Joe was great

Mark: Was it Joe Millionaire?

Nay: Fuck that shit

Mark: And he was like, (as Joe Millionaire) "Oh, I'm not a millionaire. Heh heh, my bad." (normal voice) All these women were so...

Michael: (as Joe Millionaire) "I do concrete." (normal voice) "Construction?" (as Joe Millionaire) "Concrete. Uh."

Mark: And they're basically like, daring this poor woman to marry a liar

Michael: Zora?

Mark: "Who Wants to Marry a Liar?" Basically is what--

Mark: And they gave him the last name "Marriott" so they would think he's part of the hotel chain

Nay: Yes

Mark: Evan Marriott, was that his name?

Michael: Yeah

Mark: Wow.

Michael: I had a friend in college who was not the brightest, and one time we were watching, he walked in and goes, "Why do they keep calling him 'Evan'? I thought his name was Joe." And I was like, "His name's not actually Joe Millionaire, dude."

Mark: That man is President of the United States

Michael: Jared Kushner

Mark: (Joanna's) a television executive in the remake, who makes insane, bad reality television and then she's fired and she has a nervous breakdown and that's why they move to Stepford. So it's already, right from the top she's sort of this broken doll in need of quote-unquote "fixing" because she quote-unquote "works too hard" and she has quote-unquote "ignored her marriage", and it's like, it's really bizarre-- and on top of it, Glenn Close is the one who's behind the whole Stepford robotiziation of…

Michael: I forgot about that, that's right!

Mark: And it's really weird how the remake goes about trying to make like, a woman or these women sort of responsible for the men reacting--

Michael: For being trash?

Mark: It's really-- I dunno. It's a movie that just couldn't pick a tone, and...

Michael: Well, it's a movie that says, "You're either a career woman or a housewife. Can't be both!"

Mark: Yeah, basically

Nay: Right

9Mark: But also it was like, "But also, gay men. And gay men are trying to masc each other up," and it's like…

Michael: And they're like, barfing up, farting rainbows

Mark: I know, but Stepford Wives is not like, (whispers) don't make it about men. (normal voice) Don't make it about men doing stuff to men, don't do it…

Michael: Yeah

Mark: It's not (indistinct)

Michael: It's like the Desperate Housewives version of gay men, too

Mark: Oh, man. It was really-- I mean, at one point one of the wives is like an ATM, it's really insane

Michael: Yeah. It's really bizarre

Michael: Let's talk about Carol. I just love that she brings over a casserole. I wish I had a neighbor that brought me a casserole

Nay: (as Carol) "I'll just die if I don't get this recipe…"

Michael: So Carol is like…

Mark: Poor Carol

Michael: Poor Carol. I gave her a backstory in my head that she's the original, like she's the first, she was the prototype…

Brennan: The beta

Nay: The beta, yeah

Michael: Yeah, that they got this now. There were some before her, but they all melted down or malfunctioned or something, and they're like, "She's the one we go with." And she's-- it's fucking creepy

Nay: Oh yeah

Michael: Really fucking creepy

Nay: She's the creepiest of them all

Michael: And Walter's total gaze on her when she's walking away after giving the casserole, and it's cool how the movie plays it, like he's kind of like, "What the fuck?" But he's actually like, "Oooh, this is my future."

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Mark: Mmmm

Michael: I just thought that was super-interesting. And I was a little confused and wanted to bring this up, who was the guy in the yard with her? Was that her husband that he saw grab her boob, that Joanne--

Mark: Yeah

Nay: Yeah, that like opens her shirt and--

Michael: Okay, I thought it was somebody else

Nay: No, that was her husband

Michael: So I was like, I couldn't remember, I hadn't seen it-- I was waiting for the film to go where the husbands share their bots with each other

Mark: Right

Michael: So I wanted to get clarification on that

Nay: Swap night!

Michael: Swap bot?

Nay: Yeah

Mark: Good lord. I can only imagine. Poor Carol. Who was hit in the parking lot of the--

Michael and Nay: Carol

Mark: Was it Carol? She's like, (as Carol) "This is so silly."

Michael: What did she say?

Nay: She just kept shorting out

Michael: (as Carol) "This is so silly."

Nay: Like, "Girl, do you…"

Michael: And she keeps kind of feeling for her head, but not touching it the whole time

Nay: Oh my God, yeah

Michael: And I'm like, "What's going on with your chip?"

Nay: Right

Mark: What do you think, I mean aside from just sort of the, "Let's make sure we do mass appeal," what's behind the choice of the filmmakers to make a Stepford woman a literal robot, as opposed to a sort of just…

Michael: Brainwashed?

Mark: Docile, narcotized kind of…

Nay: I think it's really scary, 'coz it's like--

Michael: Yeah, do they have to kill their wives?

Nay: Yeah, if you become, you're into the propaganda and I don't know, eventually you're like, swayed, maybe you could come back? I dunno. But if you're a robot, you're dead and there's just this--

Michael: Right. And there's no chance.

Nay: Yeah

Michael: Like you're replaced, you're gone. I find it really interesting too, that (Carol) was not just saying, "It's so silly," she also kept saying, "It's just my head." Like, there's so much there. It's where your brain lives. It's also your head. It's like so interesting that like, the repeated sentences, "This is so silly. It's just my head." And I have dealt with scary tension headaches in the past where I thought I might have had something going on so bad that my friend who's a neurosurgeon, literally I was telling him, and he was like, "Could you please go get an MRI? Right now?" And thankfully nothing was wrong, but it flashed back to that, and maybe it's kind of a statement too, on how as humans we protect ourselves by denying things, and when those were going on for awhile, I was like, "Ehhh, it's just headaches." But it kind of bleeds into her next thing, where it's like malfunctioning of the recipe, which we have the clip of if we wanna hear it… this is the second instance where we get a big "What is going on?"

Brennan: Oh yeah. And speaking real quick to the robot thing, it's kind of like a Get Out situation of your body is disposable. Like, "It literally doesn't matter to me if your body is present here. It just needs to look like you, it needs to be the surface, but the inside doesn't matter. Your guts don't need to be there, your brain doesn't need to be there."

Michael: Jordan Peele has said many times to people that his biggest inspirations were (The Stepford Wives) and Rosemary's Baby (1968)

Brennan: Oh hell yeah

(Clips of Carol at the party malfunctioning and apologizing the next day are played)

Nay: Bobbie's like, "If I had to apologize every time I got drunk…" She's so funny. Oh my God

Michael: Right? That was my thought while watching. "Why the fuck is she apologizing to these two?" What do you think the motivation is there? For the men to tell (Carol) to go apologize to Bobbie and Joanna?

Nay: To put them at ease, I think

Michael: You think so?

Nay: Yeah. I mean she looked-- there's something so human about her apology because it's like when she's shorting out and walking around the party, it's like, that's not at all the weirdest thing someone's done while drunk

Michael: Right

Nay: I don't know that they really would have thought that much about it 'cause they already thought these folks were kind of weird

Michael: And they kind of didn't, 'cause didn't they, weren't they like, wasn't one of them like, "Why are you apologizing to us? You didn't do anything."

Nay: Yeah. But I think it like, the men need the women to take all responsibility for their behaviors

Michael: For everything

Nay: For everything. And it's also part of submission, I think, to have to apologize for things that you did that weren't wrong

Mark: Well, it's the oppressive ladylike mentality that the women, these robots have been programmed with

Nay: Yeah, all about respectability

Michael: Yeah, you know basically what you just said made me think, "I bet she had to do the apology tour that day…"

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Michael: "And we only got to see the apology to Bobbie and Joanna."

Brennan: Did she have a press conference?

Michael: She's just knocking on doors, apologizing, like trick-or-treating

Mark: It's on the nightly news like, (as a news anchor) "Local woman sorry."

Brennan: Like, "I'm sorry if you were offended by me asking for the recipe."

Mark: Exactly

Nay: (as Carol) "I'll just die!"

Mark: Oh, man. I mean, the audio of those parties, there's an aspect to Stepford Wives when I watch that just reminds me of the dinner parties my parents had

Michael: Oh really?

Mark: Yeah. It was kind of like, (as a woman attending one of the parties) "We're all friends in the community and because of work, and we're the wives…"

Michael: "We all have the same interests…"

Mark: "And we're going to talk around stuff, in a kind of non-committal way." (normal voice) It's a very specific tone

Nay: Uch, boring!

Mark: And I don't mean to be…

Michael: I know what you're saying

Mark: Rude or mean about any of it, like people's interests are their interests. But there's an exaggerated truth, you know, about what the movie captures in terms of the tenor of a dinner party in the, you know, at least in my case, the early mid-Eighties

Michael: Yeah

Mark: You know, "We're the adults and we're all gathered in our best. Come into our dining room with the new stain-proof carpeting, and the, you know…"

Michael: "The new China."

Mark: Yeah, it's very-- I think that's one of the reasons why I do love the movie, because it has one of those, it really conjures in many ways what I remember homes looking like, neighborhoods looking in a certain way, and I didn't grow up in Connecticut, I grew up in Canada, but there is a kind of aggressive niceness sometimes of…

Michael: Well, it also captures the Seventies in that sense, too, where more and more people were moving away from the city to the suburbs. And the thing that stuck with me while watching it too, is that I was like, "Oh my God, only three years later, Halloween came out where they finally put the scares in suburbia," and I guess the scares are in suburbia here, but they make such a point in this movie of saying, "You can leave your doors unlocked! It's so safe!" This that and the other thing. But then that hottie cop, later in the movie is like, "You can't walk around at night in the town like this. Everything's so nice, someone's gonna come and steal something from you." So it's like they are essentially gaslighting the women at all cost, and, "You're gonna feel safe here," and if you wander from that in a different way, then they'll use fear to manipulate you. It's really fucked up

Nay: Yeah. Also thinking about when they have their men's meeting in front of Joanna, and they're talking about all the charity action they're about to get involved in and it's just wild, because I often think about men in power and how they may do some good things, like have a charity drive for Christmas toys or whatever they were talking about…

Michael: When they mentioned a cake drive, I'm like, you cunts are gonna make the women bake those cakes

Nay: Right

Mark: (chuckling) Michael

Nay: And having them float by on these mediocre good deeds, when they're fuckin' evil

Michael: Right. It's like that pat on the back'll last a year for putting together one donation drive

Mark: And again, this is a way the Stepford Wives film somehow manages to make it about men--

Michael: It's true!

Mark: And not about the actual-- it's so wild, 'cause now that I feel like I read all this stuff and I'm like, "Oh! I'll never watch it the same way again, even though I love it!" I love it so much, but...

Michael: Even in that scene, we don't even get to see her, we get to see a man's drawing of her

Mark: Yeah

Michael: The camera's not even focused on her, it's on his notepad

Mark: Which, by the way, so creepy. It's like, "Hey honey, my friend is gonna come hang out and he's gonna sketch you."

Michael: Before I heard his name, Ike, I kept referring to him in my notes as "the drawing perv"

Nay: Right. Like, "This person's gonna draw you, this person's gonna record your voice. It's not weird."

Michael: Yeah!

Nay: "He works at Disneyland making mannequins, it's not weird"

Michael: Speaking of him, she's got a great line to Diz though, when he's like, "I used to work at Disneyland," and she just kind of looks at him like, "No you fuckin' didn't." And he's like, "You don't believe me?" He goes, "Why don't you believe me?" And she goes, "Because you don't look like someone who enjoys making other people happy."

Nay: Yes!

Michael: And it's true!

Nay: She went off with that line, yeah

Michael: I love that he kind of smirks, 'cause you know his smirk is like, to me, anyway, watching it again, the smirk is totally him like, "She's got me pegged. She's right. And I'm gonna get you."

Nay: "And also I'm gonna get that ass."

Michael: Yeah. Ahh, the drawing perv

Mark: That's a good one. We love you, Stepford Wives

Nay: I really, really do

Michael: How about when Patricia's calling Frank the king?

Nay: Oh my God. (as Patricia) "You're the master!" (normal voice) I think there are, this is a question, there are men that want that said to them?

Michael: Yeah!

Nay: I was like, "Is that real?"

Michael: They don't care if it's true

Nay: I guess if you can articulate it, I guess there's somebody that wants it, of course

Mark: Yeah

Nay: But I think it's supposed-- this is the comedy you're talking about, right? Like this is what it's supposed to be? It's supposed to be hilarious, right?

Mark: Yeah, it's-- I think what you're saying makes sense, especially in light of the fact that only the most insecure people alive would turn their spouses, or kill them and replace them with fuckdolls, living fuckdolls

Nay: Yes!

Michael: Bots that say, "You're the best sex I've ever had"?

Nay: (as Patricia) "You're the master!"

Mark: Yeah. That's a level of tiny dicked…

Michael: (laughing) It is!

Mark: Tiny dicked insecurity

Michael: Little dick energy

Mark: Like small dick energy

Michael: S-D-E?

Mark: S-D-E

Nay: We're not bodyshamin', y'all

Michael: No

Mark: Stepford dick energy

Nay: Stepford, yes!

Michael: There we go! That's better

Nay: Yes!

Michael: No shaming, Stepford dick energy

Nay: Stepford dick energy can come in any size, but you have no act right

Michael: Yes!

Mark: Exactly, and it means that your entire vision of yourself-- I mean, these men, these men are erasing the personhood of their wives…

Nay: Yeah

Mark: Essentially because it's not even actually about them, it's about themselves. It's the biggest ego trip, and they need to see themselves reflected in someone else's eyes as being masters of their domain--

Michael: Perfect

Mark: And perfect, and fuck masters…

Michael: It's true!

Mark: I mean, to a one all those guys are not, y'know, fuckable

Michael: I getcha

Mark: I mean, am I forgetting any of them? Or are any of them hot?

Nay: Right, they need a robot. Yeah, you right

Michael: The cop is hot.

Mark: I love that that station wagon drives into town, like a station wagon with that family and he's like, "Who are they?" And I remember being like, "Wow, Stepford Wives is different."

Nay: Right

Michael: The amount of station wagons in the movie

Mark: That takes me back, too

Michael: And they're so, they need to be looked at as perfect, but they're such fucking cowards in every way too. They can't even kill their wives, they make these robots do it for them...

Mark: Yeah

Michael: And it's just gross

Mark: (chuckling) It's unreal

Nay: You know, when Joanna first goes over to Bobbie's, Bobbie has changed, I couldn't tell at first Bobbie has changed. 'Cause she had on a white dress so I was like, "Oh, she's changed," but at first the way she's talking seems pretty normal. And then, there's something so subtle that happens where she, where you're like, oh I'm absolutely positive that when (Joanna) stabs her, she's not gonna bleed

(Brennan plays the clip of Joanna confronting Bobbie and stabbing her)

Joanna: Bobbie, stop it! Look at me!

Michael: It's terrifying

Nay: Yeah

Michael: 'Cause you know what's gonna happen

Mark: (as Bobbie) "Now why would you go and do a thing like that?"

Joanna: ...your face is different. What you talk about is different. All of this is different!

Michael: Just dropping mugs

Bobbie: Yes, yes, this. It's wonderful. Why don't you change your mind and have a cup?

Joanna: What does "archaic" mean?

Michael: Love that

Bobbie: "Archaic"?

Joanna: Yes

Bobbie: I don't know

Joanna: Think! You used to know. We went to Marie Axell's and she was ironing and you used that word

Michael: (sotto voce) That was the word

Nay: (sotto voce) Mmm-hmm

Bobbie: Did I? Well, I forgot! How do you want it?

Nay: That's not you, Bobbie

Joanna: It wasn't on the word list, was it?

Michael: It's like ten-o'clock, stop with the coffee

Bobbie: You take cream?

Joanna: Look, I bleed!

Bobbie: Oh, that's right. You take it black

Joanna: When I cut myself I bleed!

Bobbie: Why look at your hand!

Joanna: No, you look!

Bobbie: How could you do a thing like that?

Michael: Mark plays Joanna in the remake

Bobbie: I was just going to get you some coffee. Well, I was just going to get you some coffee…

Mark: Well, that would be inadvisable casting

Nay: Ugh, I love that part!

Michael: It's so great

Mark: Did you ever see the TV sequel?

Michael: No, I wanted to!

Brennan: There's more than one, Mark

Michael: Yeah, there's three of them, too

Mark: Revenge of the Stepford Wives…

Michael: Which is about…

Mark: The Stepford Husbands, and The Stepford Children. Because Julie Kavner, the voice of Marge Simpson is one of the wives who gets turned--

Nay: Okay, I'm insane

Michael: No

Mark: And so, if you've ever wanted to hear Marge Simpson as a Stepford Wife, now you can, just go to my Instagram…

Michael: That's amazing

Brennan: It's like our own personal Treehouse of Horror

Mark: Exactly

Michael: So amazing. The first sequel is like a reporter going to solve The Stepford Wives, right?

Mark: Exactly

Michael: Which is kind of like how the remake ends on that, with a little nod to the…

Mark: Precisely

Mark: Stepford Wives we love you. You may have some blemishes as a result of, you know, the road you had to take to make it to the big screen…

Nay: Right

Mark: I just think, I just think the movie ages awfully well

Michael: I think so too…

Nay: Oh yeah

Michael: And it's one of the first films about feminism

Mark: I mean, certainly pop films, you know

Michael: Yeah, in that way

Mark: Trailblazer

Brennan: If the Real Housewives can play to gay audiences, why not The Stepford Wives?

Nay: Right

Mark: Which is a way to think of how Stepford Wives have insinuated themselves in the culture already

Brennan: Exactly. "In this essay, I will…"

Nay: Oh my God. Imagine a Real Housewives crossover with The Stepford Wives. NeNe Leakes gets turned into a… okay, I'm dying already

Brennan: Oh my God

Michael: Well, watching the movie--

Mark: Greg, is it Greg her husband?

Nay: (laughing) Yes!

Michael: I kept thinking of--

Mark: Like Nene as Joanna is an amazing idea

Michael: Jesus Christ!

Nay: I die, I die

Mark: And then Taraji's the best friend. Taraji's Bobbie

Nay: Yeah

Michael: I had one last question I wanna ask

Nay: What

Mark: And then Tyler Perry runs…

Nay: Is nothing. Okay.

Mark: (laughs) I was gonna say he runs the Men's Association

Nay: You know what, that is, that makes sense, that's perfect

Michael: He's one of the station wagons

Michael: So, people have posed-- while I was doing research, this needs to be part of it because I think it's an interesting question. So people online pose that Joanna at the end of the movie is actually not changed, that she's actually still Joanna

Brennan: Is that why we have this whole murder board full of printed out articles you have over here?

Michael: Yes!

Mark: There's actually a red yarn wall of…

Michael: So I actually read-- like Ted Bundy's picture for no reason

Mark: Michael came prepared.

Michael: Okay, so in the EW article, someone-- I actually read the comments, for the first time in my life I read a comment that's actually useful

Mark: Oh!

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Michael: The writer of the Entertainment Weekly article is a woman by the name of Devon Cogan, and this comment says, "Interesting that Devon Cogan wrote about the ending being that there can be no doubt about what happened." This person doesn't disagree, but they found that when they've recommended the film to people, many people have expressed the belief that Joanna somehow escaped her fate and is somehow only pretending to be a Stepford wife. "I find it intriguing that this interpretation has come up as often as it has in my experience and I sometimes find myself agreeing with it. I think it's the way Katharine Ross plays the final scene in the supermarket. While the other wives glide serenely through the scene, she seems ever so slightly guarded and anxious, which a Stepford wife would never be. Then in the final shot before the closing credits as Joanna walks toward the camera, she goes out of focus and when she comes back into focus, her eyes fill the screen in close-up. On one hand, this serves as evidence that the Joanna robot was completed with the black voids having been filled in, but it could also be a sign that the real Joanna, a photographer and observer whose eyes were crucial to her identity lives on." So. Thoughts? I actually rewound that like ten times before, like today, after reading that today, and I see it. I see this slight hesitation and her like, thinking

Nay: I love that. I hope that's true

Michael: Yeah

Mark: I mean, I think it's intriguing. I'd be curious for listeners to get at us and tell us what you think

Nay: Yeah, definitely

Michael: Yeah. Good post

Mark: It sounds like a little bit of wishful thinking to me

Nay: Right

Michael: Yeah, a little bit

Mark: I'm not sure I buy that, I get the reason why we want that to be

Michael: Yeah, I guess it's a happy ending then?

Mark: I think if you come away from the movie desperately wanting that to be the case, then the movie's done its job

Michael: Good point

Mark: But I'm not sure I buy that

Michael: I think that's a good way to end

(Twitter poll?)

Brennan:...And for all of your Llorona updates, news, interviews and information…

Michael: And hot dads?

Brennan: You can follow me @mariamenounos. No, you can follow me on Twitter @itsrainingbrens. What if she interviewed La Llorona though? I would watch the hell out of that

Nay: Oh, iconic

Brennan: In her little overalls? She's wearing overalls now. Been in the movies lately? She's got 'em, it's great

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